Passing of the Grey Company + Muster of Rohan

[Butterbeer]

King Edwards, of course! But keep the skins on...

...

and you can all agree that I'm totally right and that's the end of that

.

well. you knows your 'taters ... boy, it DOES work like that!

hauntingly spooky, best BB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't think that the number of the nazgul was decisive in choosing the number of the Walkers. Nine is the number of Perfection in numerology. It was the right size of the group, not too few, but not too many. Accidentally it was also the number of the Nazgul, and Elrond commented on it. 15 or 16 is already a big group, bound to be detected. No, I don't think that Elrond would have sent more than 9.

I disagree. Elrond said at the council that he would send Nine walkers, [b]to match the Nine Riders of the Dark Lord[/b.] But agree that Elrond would have been hesitant to send 15 or 16 as the key to succeding was getting as far as possible without being detected.

Anyway, even had he sent 12, I bet neither Glorfindel or Erestor would be in the group. They were SO needed at home and were shiny and easy to spot for the nazgul. And ANY ranger would be as susceptible as Boromir to the Lure of the Ring. So...More hobbits? But where could one get more? Perhaps some Dwarves and lower ranking Elves would be added.

I agree that a Ranger would be as susceptible to the Lure of the Ring as Boromir, yet I still think at least one more would have been chosen. I also think that Gildor could have been chosen, along with one more dwarf.

Alt+649 works only with American keyboards, and I get §$]!

Try Alt+137

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I agree that a Ranger would be as susceptible to the Lure of the Ring as Boromir, yet I still think at least one more would have been chosen. I also think that Gildor could have been chosen, along with one more dwarf.
Try Alt+137

Gildor was still somewhere between the Brandywine and the Havens. I dimly remember he stayed there all through the war, singing and wandering.
No, I think that Nine was just the Max group size. Even sauron didn't want more nazgul!
Unless, as Olmer suggested, the Fellowship could pick more hobbits to have them to spare. One gets killed, but the Quest continues. With 8-9 hobbits the Ring could go very far!

Alt+137 - "©£|" Here what it does on an old Mac!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Gildor couldn't have been near the Brandywine, as it is him who bought the news to Rivendell about Frodo's plight with the Ring.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Gildor couldn't have been near the Brandywine, as it is him who bought the news to Rivendell about Frodo's plight with the Ring.

No, it was one of his elves - a messenger. Gildor was not at the Counsil of Elrond. Actually the hobits left him in the Shire on their way to Buckland and found him three years later at the same spot, right when they were riding to the Havens. He was together with Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel.

He said to the hobbits:

I am Gildor,’ answered their leader, the Elf who had first hailed him. ‘Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea.’

It is exactly what he was doing all through the War of the Ring. "Tarrying a while" in the peaceful Shire.

[Butterbeer]

well, maybe he had a marrow allotment?

serious business growing marrows y'know!

(and you should know if anyone does!!)

[Serenoli]

You know... I never really understood the marrow joke. Is this the same marrow we have in our bones?

And about the Eru business... I never really thought of it like that, but I agree with Gordis and the Gaffer. Eru was unfair, really... there was definitely a Ban, but he never told tham Numenor would sink under the sea if they broke it! And the promise not to break the Ban was extracted from their distant ancestors... the ones who broke the Ban never really gave any promises, so the whole point about oath-breaking is invalid.

[Butterbeer]

it's a vegetable, tis a northern english obsession with some people: twas speculated sometime ago that the Witch King of Angmar may have had a keen interest in horticulture up t'north, like , esp growing the largest marrows ....

well i am not sure i agree serenoli they knew the edict and that it wasn't a temporary ban ... it wasn't so much a promise made by the Numenoreans, but a law laid down on condition of granting the island of Elenna to them ...

not to sail out of sight westwards of the island or to tread into the utmost west ... the line of elros chose mortality ... thus they could not tread there...

what would happen if they did get there though? would they be immortal? - is there no death there, even for mortals?

[Valandil]

OK let's keep it to these chapters.

If you want to discuss Numenor and/or Angmar - you can find the right thread elsewhere, or start one.

[Butterbeer]

thus the opening salvo of the war begins -

"Well for myself" said Aragorn... "it is dark before me. ... an hour long prepared approaches"

this quote has always made me wonder ... what do we take it to mean?

there are a couple of things i'd like to look at: firstly, we know that the heirs of Elendil and isildur had the foresight of their lineage and could bend their minds and see things far off (mainly, i contend with the palantir - and this is before arargorn attemps it) - but to me this quote implies heavily that arargorn to some degree can see the road ahead - yet he forsees it is dark ... or do we take it to mean blocked? .. if just 'dark' in some ways this is a pretty fair guess - but i have never took it in that light myself.

also Aragorn's sight in this respect had been pretty well hidden from the readers to this point, anyway, what do you think?

The other thing here, for me, is the

"... an hour long prepared approaches"

what are we to take this to mean in context of arargorn himself saying it?

Surely he cannot know that the doom of middle earth is pre-judged - and indeed that is another whole question in itself, entirely (which i suggest we do not follow here, sadly)

does he refer to the words of the seer?

(again, remember this is before the Dunedain and Elrond's sons bring the words from Elrond bidding him remember the words of the seer, Malbeth

if so .. how do we take "an hour long prepared approaches" to mean?

prepared by whom?

[Serenoli]

I haven't read this for many days, and can't remember exactly where he said this... but, when he talks about 'an hour long prepared approaches', he may be referring to the fact that he'll have to go back to Gondor and claim his kingship... maybe that hour?

[Butterbeer]

yes, maybe ... though it occurs to me he may be referring here in this chapter, to the doom of Arwen ... and Elrond's words that he would only allow a marriage and all it curtailed for Arwen, if Arargorn fullfilled his destiny somehow and became High King of Gondor and Arnor.

In terms of long prepared ..we have of course Arwen long preparing his standard, the tree, the seven stars and the crown ... also he has forsook taking either a wife or a lover, waiting for Arwen ...so there is that aspect too ..

though i still think it an odd thing to say or imply ...esp as it is before they ride off and are overtook by the Dunedain riding hard from the North, seeking him and bringing the words of Elrond,, to remember the words of the Seer.

BTW Serenoli, thanks for your kind words, thoughts and support - much appreciated.

very best, BB

[Butterbeer]

5) this deepening gloom, this cloud that made the very air seem brown and stale ... what in your opinion was this and how did sauron create and control it?

from the Muster of Rohan ... this question has not been attempted yet ... i'd be interested to know what you all think on this one...

[Gordis]

I would say volcanic ash and fumes from Orodruin, carried on the East Wind.
Sauron can control weather to some extent, surely.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree with Gordis. It was even suggested that he had a hand in the Caradhras storm.

[Butterbeer]

yes, TD and Gordis i don't doubt sorcery was involved in attempting to control the weather or winds ... although i always thought caradhras was unclear ... i had always thought of it as some sorcery, but i suspect as Gor says it was probably partly man (or orc etc) made ... but these clouds were so thick to almost make it completely dark and stretched from over Gondor right up to Rohan - and who knows how far beyond?

It would take vast incredible amounts of ash and fires and what not to do that.

the line later in the book " the darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his master had set for it.."

implies to me something other than just a man made massive pall of smoke and fumes ... though it is the best explanation so far ...

i think tolkien was implying a sorcery as much as anything else ... certainly a mix of sorecery and some man made elements, as gor suggests?

it is appromixametly 360 miles as a crow flies from Orodruin to edoras (on an accurate calculation from the map and scale in my book (a red, hard-bound, Allen and Unwin, 1966) - i guess in style of the red book of westmarch?

and that is in a straight line: these clouds or whatever must have covered a HUGE square area...

btw: was another will fighting Sauron or was it fate that these clouds - or the wind changed not at the time set by sauron?

(to be fair we should probably move discussion of that bit to 'the battle of the pelennor Fields' when it is posted up ...)

How much do we think this darkness is to make men despair .. to lower moral and engender fear? or how much was it to make trolls and orcs happier and better able to fight day and night?

best, BB

[The Gaffer]

In this particular case it probably is Sauron, or else just a big metaphor.

I don't think all of these things can be attributed directly to Sauron, though, who was himself but a servant of Morgoth. LOTR is replete with references to how evil things "begin to stir" at times as if responding to some call. In Unfinished Tales (or is it the Silmarillion?), Morgoth says as much to Hurin: that his thought is bound into the fabric of the world from the very start, and so reaches into everything.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Aragorn's kin ride to his aid, seeking him from afar in Rohan, with Elrohir and ellodan Elrond's sons. What summons did they heed?

I'm guessing Galadriel's. She has that very nifty forseeing mirror, and a speed-dial line to Elrond over their Rings if I'm not mistaken.

How sure is Aragorn that the dead will honour their oath? (the oath they swore to Isildur to fight sauron)

Pretty sure, it seems. The power of oaths has been well discussed and seems something best not to meddle with in Middle-earth. And Elrond seems to endorse the choice, Elrond being someone whose advice is IMO very dependable.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I wonder if Aragorn, while confronting Sauron, actually tried to make the Dark Lord believe he has got the Ring?

"We are the rightful owners of this Palantir, yesss, only we, my Preciousss... And you have no right to use the Ithil-Stone, you fishy-fiery-Eye"

I wonder too, although I doubt that Sauron would even have needed prompting to believe that Aragorn did possess the Ring. It seems foolish of Aragorn to attempt to reveal himself so soon otherwise, he was still in Rohan and while Rohan's forces were amassing, they would not follow Aragorn but their own king. And neither was Aragorn already seated firmly on the throne in Gondor. So it would seem foolish of Aragorn to reveal himself to Sauron if he didn't have something powerful to fall back on, like the Ring. I reckon Sauron couldn't imagine anyone not wanting to use the Ring.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

We are told much in terms of the Rohirrim how they and their culture is like the contryside fair, green and rolling in part and beautiful with a foundation of strength, cold and hard like the mountains and mist wreathed dales. Of their songs and northern culture, we see the effect on the Rohirrim's language, culture and ways of life.

I always thought the idea of Dunharrow, hidden valleys in the mountains where people could flee to and live and hide in while war raged on their lands, was very cool. Yet it amazes me that they would chose a hide-out so closely to the Path of the Death which they clearly fear very much. You'd think they'd pick another, more safer spot to hide.

After reading the discription of Dunharrow, I started thinking of how gletsjer movements could have formed the valley. I'm such a geek.

"This request only did Aragorn make to me, .... that you should be armed for battle ... for my heart tells me that you will need such gear ere the end" ...

Did Aragorn forsee this? More importantly perhaps did he therefore also forsee that Eowyn would ride to battle regardless?

I don't think Aragorn forsaw it, but I reckon he suspected they might try anyhow. But leaving them behind was in his eyes the best and safest place for them.

And even if Merry would not ride with the Rohirrim into battle, it could still be that the battle would come to Rohan, if Minas Tirith fell. That way Merry would still better be prepared for battle. Clearly Rohan itself isn't out of the woods yet, as they hear tales of war and assailants when the Rohirrim finally depart.

It could well have been that Dunharrow did see battle when their cavalry was gone to Gondor, we're just not told because no important character was left there.

I wonder how the people of Rohan reacted after finding Éowyn gone. Would they have suspected she had snuck off? Or would they have suspected foul play? In any case I bet there would have been much unrest.

What on earth did Baldor son of Brego think he was doing daring the paths of the dead, and what was behind the door, the door is locked? ... a middle earth version of our own mooter Anduril?

Nice one! Too bad that game floundered without its captain... But back on topic, I always wondered what he was doing there, at that locked door and what had been behind it. The treasury of the dead? And of what did he die and why did he make no attempt to turn around, instead dying on the threshold, after having beaten with sword on the door? Curious indeed.

How did Eowyn get from saying a tearful goodbye to Theoden to standing in the line as a young armed man with a horse and gear etc and a face 'in search of death'?

Being very good at speed-dressing?

I also noticed that Éowyn apparantly expected Merry to guess who she was. But Merry seemingly only recognized her when she lost her helm on the battle-field. Clearly he was not paying much attention, I gather.

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I think Eowyn is quite representative of women in the postwar world. She has seen her male kin fight bravely while she was left at home to "take care of things". She wants a part of the glory; so for a while she nurtures dreams about winning glory in war (which she eventually does) but at the end, realises that her true "glory" would be to regain her "femininity" (sp?) and marry Faramir. (Just as the role of postwar women was to go out and work while the men fought, not to go and fight themselves) At least that's how I see it.

Interesting comparison. I always likened Éowyn to the female warriors from old myths with which Tolkien must have been familiar, but I never saw a possible connection with the post-war era.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Also why was Gimli cruelly left at the back almost crawling on all fours at the end, with even the sons of elrond in front of him? Might not someone have gone and helped him, picked him up and supported him? Legolas? Take his hand, talk to him? Walk behind to ward off the shades of men that were terrorising the dwarf?

I got the impression that this was something that each of the company had to face on their own. I guess I likened the passing of the Path of the Death to something you continually have to concentrate on to keep going, where you can't so much as look back to see how the others are doing, because the moment you look back you'll lose your nerve, and might go running off in desperation, straight into the dead and possibly go stone cold crazy on the spot.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Isildur was too interested in magic for his own good. All his life he dealt with magical objects. While in Numenor, he meddled with the White Tree, then he brought a black STONE to Erech, all the way from the drowning Numenor! What the hell did he need it for, if not for magic?

Interesting idea that the Stone of Erech was necessary for Isildur to curse the mountain-people. I never saw that connection before.

[Serenoli]

Originally Posted by Earniel

After reading the discription of Dunharrow, I started thinking of how gletsjer movements could have formed the valley.

Maybe I'm a geek, too, but what ARE gletsjer movements?

Originally Posted by Earniel

I wonder if Aragorn, while confronting Sauron, actually tried to make the Dark Lord believe he has got the Ring?

"We are the rightful owners of this Palantir, yesss, only we, my Preciousss... And you have no right to use the Ithil-Stone, you fishy-fiery-Eye"

I suppose he wouldn't really have to convince Sauron, as Earniel says. I mean, Sauron was expecting everyday someone from the enemy who would challenge him, ever since he realised they had his Precious. And who better than Aragorn, son of the tark who stole it from him in the first place??

But, I still wonder what their conversation was like. Did Sauron ask questions, did he cajole or use threats? And what DID Aragorn say? And why didn't Tolkien write that scene, it must have been very exciting, yet he leaves only hints... do you think he found it too hard to decide exactly how it should go... or was it because actually seeing the Dark Lord worsted in verbal combat would dispel the air of mystery and fear that surrounds him in the rest of the book?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Serenoli

Maybe I'm a geek, too, but what ARE gletsjer movements?

Sorry, glacier movements. Got stuck on the Dutch word gletsjer, for some reason I thought the word existed in English as well. Sort of embarrassing considering my geology handbook in school was actually in English...