The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 2: The Council of Elrond

[Nurvingiel]

I agree RTB, and I also think it's because of the riddle, and the heritage of Isildur. The fact that Isildur was betrayed by the Ring wasn't really in the library records IIRC. Gandalf read between the lines and did other research, but this wouldn't have been obvious to someone else. Especially someone who didn't fully understand Sauron's true nature and power, and the sort of evil tools he employed (like the Ring).

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

It makes sense to me that Dain would send a dwarf who still remained from Thorin's band... , they had been to Rivendell before, and had been well-treated there - and received good help from Elrond.

Point is taken. Now I see that there was a really good reason to send someone who already knows the way.

Originally Posted by Valandil

However - I now suspect it was either the Mouth of Sauron or some other such messenger. I just don't think Sauron would have sent one of the Nazgul for this purpose... when another servant might have been more appropriate

.
I still think that it was the Nazgul, Khamul in particular.
Why Sauron had to send somebody all the way from Mordor, while his most trusted servants were dwelling in much shorter distance from the Dale and Lonely Mountain?
If you read my posting "In defense of the Ringwraiths", you probably remember that the Nazguls spent unreasonably long time in the vales of Anduin.Now I think that all this time they used to accompany Khamul on the message delivery.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

... the Nazgul just radiate evil and might have 'given away the game' as they say.

Seems an old Gaffer and Farmer Maggot was not so unnnerved by the Nazgul.
I think the Dwarves perception woun't be any better.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Comparatively little is devoted to the argument against "using it ourselves": it seems to boil down simply to Elrond's and Gandalf's reluctance to take it and wield it, and their word that it will turn you evil.

This was puzzeled me from the beginning that all discussion about a different options of the ring destruction had been held just between the Elves,nobody asked Dwarf's opinion or Hobbit's. When Gloin tentatively suggested to enlist the help of another Three rings, the Elves got in the silencing offence :The Elves returned no answer, and Elrond chided him that he is not allowed to speak about them.
Nobody was brave enough to oppose the decision of the Elves. Only Boromir had the guts to stand up and voice his opinion, for which he gained in my eyes much higher respect then Aragorn.(But Aragorn has come a long way to deserve later an admiration too)
So, in my POV the Council of Elrond was a staged show, where the major players was already picked up, it was only left to persuade them to take the predeterminate role.And to do so you had to aim on convincing everybody in the common danger, the danger of the total destruction of the M.E.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I still think that it was the Nazgul, Khamul in particular.
Why Sauron had to send somebody all the way from Mordor, while his most trusted servants were dwelling in much shorter distance from the Dale and Lonely Mountain?

If you're referring to Orcs, I don't think they would be well-received at the Lonely Mountain.

Seems an old Gaffer and Farmer Maggot was not so unnnerved by the Nazgul.
I think the Dwarves perception woun't be any better.

True, but he did sense that there was something wrong with the guy, and that he spoke funny. I think Sauron would want to send someone who had (or could take the guise of) a fairer appearance. Maybe the Mouth of Sauron could pull it off, maybe not. It's certainly fair to think it was Khamul, I don't think there's evidence to the contrary.

This was puzzeled me from the beginning that all discussion about a different options of the ring destruction had been held just between the Elves,nobody asked Dwarf's opinion or Hobbit's. When Gloin tentatively suggested to enlist the help of another Three rings, the Elves got in the silencing offence :The Elves returned no answer, and Elrond chided him that he is not allowed to speack about them.

If the Elves used the three rings, they might tip Sauron off. They didn't want to give away to Sauron that they were trying to destroy the Ring, and they wanted to keep knowledge of who had it and where it was a secret. How could the Three be used in a non-obvious way that would still actually help?
We can't be sure they were not used anyway (subtly, of course) - "Gilthoniel, a Elbereth" occured to Frodo and Sam at just the right moments.
EDIT: About asking a Hobbit's or Dwarf's opinion, the Elves were really the only people in this case who knew what they were talking about. Elrond was actually there when Isildur took the Ring, what better first-hand knowledge could you ask for? In addition, he was extremely wise, his opinion would have been consulted anyway. In Frodo's place, I would have trusted Elrond's council.

Nobody was brave enough to oppose the decision of the Elves. Only Boromir had the guts to stand up and voice his opinion, for which he gained in my eyes much higher respect then Aragorn.(But Aragorn has come a long way to deserve later an admiration too)

I respect Boromir for putting forth his idea, but that doesn't mean his idea didn't suck.

So, in my POV the Council of Elrond was a staged show, where the major players was already picked up, it was only left to persuade them to take the predeterminate role.And to do so you had to aim on convincing everybody in the common danger, the danger of the total destruction of the M.E.

Are you suggesting Sauron isn't evil and/or not trying to enslave all of Middle-earth? Because there is significant evidence to the contrary.

[Durin1]

The 3 had a wholly different "power and purpose" to the rest of the Rings [read: Tolkien's Letter to Milton Waldman in one of the editions to The Sil] so they would be quite useless in being using against Sauron.

It is enough to hide the knowledge of the 3 to those who didn't need to know. I think that not many "ordinary" elves would have been directly aware of the use of the 3 Rings, or if they did, they were not permitted to speak about it. This is similar to the ring possessed by the Dwarves of Moria: not many would have been aware of its existance and it would never have been openly talked about.

[Durin1]

What has always interested me during the chapter is the "dream" that Boromir has, and its implications. For discussion:

1. From whom did the messages/dream come from?

2. Is there any coincidence that the dreams were first targeted at Faramir and that he received them often, and that Boromir only receieved it once?

It remains my belief that whoever sent the messages wanted Faramir to go to Imladris.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I still think that it was the Nazgul, Khamul in particular.
Why Sauron had to send somebody all the way from Mordor, while his most trusted servants were dwelling in much shorter distance from the Dale and Lonely Mountain?
If you read my posting "In defense of the Ringwraiths", you probably remember that the Nazguls spent unreasonably long time in the vales of Anduin.Now I think that all this time they used to accompany Khamul on the message delivery.

Yeah - but the Anduin is still a long way from Erebor. Whole next river valley over... with a substantial forest in between.

[inked]

Originally Posted by Durin1

What has always interested me during the chapter is the "dream" that Boromir has, and its implications. For discussion:

1. From whom did the messages/dream come from?

2. Is there any coincidence that the dreams were first targeted at Faramir and that he received them often, and that Boromir only receieved it once?

It remains my belief that whoever sent the messages wanted Faramir to go to Imladris.

Working from memory only, I seem to recall that the dream originated with the Valar (1). I think that they were ultimately from Eru and mediated by the Valar, but I'll have to check the chapter more closely to confirm that.

IMHO, the dreams were sent to the most receptive individual, not necessarily the one who was to carry out the task. In my understanding, once Boromir had the dream and (most likely) discussed it with his brother, they took counsel together and presented the data to Denethor. It is interesting that he received no dream, but may have been under the influence of Sauron to the extent he could not himself receive it. Nontheless, Denethor retained enough insight to pursue the message, though he had little faith in regards to it. It would then make sense that he would send as ambassador the son who was most like himself to achieve Denethor's goals. Boromir was subsequently shown to indeed be most like his father, but ultimately overcame that willfullness and pride at great cost.

"The ways of the gods are strange to men, and yet they are not strange."
Orual, TILL WE HAVE FACES, CS Lewis.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

If you're referring to Orcs, I don't think they would be well-received at the Lonely Mountain.

I have a feeling he meant the Nazgûl. They would be new in Erebor and so wouldn't have raised alarm bells if they hadn't made clear the fact they were from Mordor.

[Nurvingiel]

IIRC, Faramir says to Frodo and Sam in Ithilien that he would have liked this quest, but Boromir insisted that he would go. I wonder how much of that was fate, and how much was the nature of the two brothers. Hm...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But then maybe it would have been Faramir tempted by the Ring instead of Boromir.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Valandil

side-note: I thought for a long time that the messenger to Erebor was a Nazgul... indeed on our first reading of LOTR, that's what any of us would think - since they would be the only black riders from Mordor we would think of.

However - I now suspect it was either the Mouth of Sauron or some other such messenger. I just don't think Sauron would have sent one of the Nazgul for this purpose... when another servant might have been more appropriate.

I see that others have chimed in on this one, but I agree with Olmer, I really think it was a Nazgul. Here's why:

1. The rider to Dain: a) arrives at night, in secret--since the 9 were not riding openly yet, though active b) he is unable to make his voice fair b1) he is said to have a fell voice c) his breath hissed like the hiss of snakes d) everyone who hears him shudders in fear--this all sounds very like a Nazgul to me. BUT....

2. Would Sauron have entrusted discussion and information about the ring to antone else? Take the Mouth for example, a Black Numenorean full of ambition who has studied "sorcery"---not someone I would entrust with finding the Ring because he would likely be tempted to take it himself and try and master it. Whereas the Nazgul were slaves to the Ring and would feel no temptation. Granted the rider is only looking for news, not the thing itself, but it seems to me that even news at that stage of Sauron's game would have been dangerous.


FB

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I see that others have chimed in on this one, but I agree with Olmer, I really think it was a Nazgul. Here's why:

1. The rider to Dain: a) arrives at night, in secret--since the 9 were not riding openly yet, though active b) he is unable to make his voice fair b1) he is said to have a fell voice c) his breath hissed like the hiss of snakes d) everyone who hears him shudders in fear--this all sounds very like a Nazgul to me. BUT....

This is an excellent point, and as I said before, there's no solid evidence to say that the messenger was not a Nazgul. Why not trust the Mouth though? He's as loyal as the Nazgul. All your points could also indicate the Mouth of Sauron, so I think we can say we have a hung jury on that one.

2. Would Sauron have entrusted discussion and information about the ring to antone else? Take the Mouth for example, a Black Numenorean full of ambition who has studied "sorcery"---not someone I would entrust with finding the Ring because he would likely be tempted to take it himself and try and master it.

If the Mouth of Sauron or anyone else tried to master the Ring, Sauron would easily know where it was and take it. He's the true master and only he can control the Ring. Maybe he'd even want someone to attempt this.

This point is relevant to other parts of this chapter. That is why Boromir's idea was totally shot down. An attempt to use the Ring would be essentially delivering it to Sauron.

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by inked

Working from memory only, I seem to recall that the dream originated with the Valar (1). I think that they were ultimately from Eru and mediated by the Valar, but I'll have to check the chapter more closely to confirm that.

IMHO, the dreams were sent to the most receptive individual, not necessarily the one who was to carry out the task. In my understanding, once Boromir had the dream and (most likely) discussed it with his brother, they took counsel together and presented the data to Denethor. It is interesting that he received no dream, but may have been under the influence of Sauron to the extent he could not himself receive it. Nontheless, Denethor retained enough insight to pursue the message, though he had little faith in regards to it. It would then make sense that he would send as ambassador the son who was most like himself to achieve Denethor's goals. Boromir was subsequently shown to indeed be most like his father, but ultimately overcame that willfullness and pride at great cost.

"The ways of the gods are strange to men, and yet they are not strange."
Orual, TILL WE HAVE FACES, CS Lewis.

Firstly, welcome to the Moot!

Boromir takes it upon himself to make the dangerous journey from Gondor to Rivendell. Faramir, in Window of the West", points out that he himself was due to go but Boromir insisted. Denethor was loathe to send Boromir but I don't think it was anything to do with looking in the palantir.

Although the Valar may have sent the message (I wouldn't even want to guess which one, although I'd hazard a guess that Ulmo gave the vision of Boromir on Anduin to Faramir), it is clear, through History, that they have not always achieved their intentions (that's an understatement if ever there was one!). I believe therefore that it was always their intention to send Faramir.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

an excellent summary, and a good range of views so far.

I have always thought that the council of elrond was rather a good chapter, although if you are not used to reading long sections of monologue at a time, it can be quite tiresome.

The main part of this chapter, to me, is an introduction into the stories that shaped the future, including some not so distant pasts, eg gollum in mirkwood, gandalf at orthanc etc.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

This is an excellent point, and as I said before, there's no solid evidence to say that the messenger was not a Nazgul. Why not trust the Mouth though? He's as loyal as the Nazgul. All your points could also indicate the Mouth of Sauron, so I think we can say we have a hung jury on that one.

I guess I don't see that, Nurvingiel. Where is the Mouth described as having a breath that hisses like snakes, whose presence strikes inexplicable terror into those who stand near, can not make his voice sound fair and has a fell voice? If anything, the description of the Mouth. So while some of the points could apply to the Mouth or another like him, these features seem to me to speak only of the Nazgul.

As for trusting the Mouth, how do we know he was as loyal as a Nazgul and wouldn't be tempted by the Ring? EVERYONE, even Gandalf and Galadriel, though loyal to the Free Peoples and the Valar are tempted by it, and resist the temptation. WOuld the Mouth have so resisted? Saruman didn't.

If the Mouth of Sauron or anyone else tried to master the Ring, Sauron would easily know where it was and take it. He's the true master and only he can control the Ring. Maybe he'd even want someone to attempt this.

I'm not sure that that is true. Bilbo and Frodo frequently used the Ring and Sauron didn't know. And when Frodo puts on the Ring on Amon Hen, is the wearing of the Ring, or the wearing of the Ring on Amon Hen that alerts Sauron? Even then, he can't pinpoint its location. And Tolkien does not say that ONLY Sauron can master it, just that it would take a "large" person to do so, someone perhaps like Gandalf or Galadriel rather than Frodo or Gollum.

And the point of course isn't whether or not the Mouth COULD master the Ring so much as he would be tempted to do so...even Isildur attempted it.

This point is relevant to other parts of this chapter. That is why Boromir's idea was totally shot down. An attempt to use the Ring would be essentially delivering it to Sauron.

I disagree here too: Boromir's idea was shot down because the Ring was evil, none can wield unless they have a great power of their own, and the Ring would corrupt. The Mouth is already "corrupt" and evil, has a great power of his own (like Isildur except that he has long studied "sorcery" under Sauron), he's a very good candidate to try and master the Ring.

FB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I guess I don't see that, Nurvingiel. Where is the Mouth described as having a breath that hisses like snakes, whose presence strikes inexplicable terror into those who stand near, can not make his voice sound fair and has a fell voice? If anything, the description of the Mouth. So while some of the points could apply to the Mouth or another like him, these features seem to me to speak only of the Nazgul.

The Nazgûl had no will save Sauron's. I agree that it was one of the Nazgûl, but I think that the MoS would have been just as loyal. Remember at The Black Gate when he speaks of the rewards he will earn if Sauron get's the Ring back. He knows that he could not muster a force to attack Sauron's even if he had wanted to.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

The Nazgûl had no will save Sauron's. I agree that it was one of the Nazgûl, but I think that the MoS would have been just as loyal. Remember at The Black Gate when he speaks of the rewards he will earn if Sauron get's the Ring back. He knows that he could not muster a force to attack Sauron's even if he had wanted to.

Perhaps I'm just blind, I'm sure many here would agree. But I don't see that either. The closest I can come to your statement here is that when the Mouth gives Sauron's terms for the Captain's surrender, that the Captains read his thought that he, the Mouth, will be the one to replace Saruman in Orthanc as "one more worthy"....that has nothing to do with getting the Ring back or even finding the Ring.

But even if so, if he can master the Ring, his rewards would be greater, and that possibility surely would have occurred to him had he been the messenger and gone after the Ring....even more so had he gotten his hands on it. Even little Sam, the most loyal, good hearted individual in the story, has delusions of grandeur when he has the Ring, how can we expect a Black Numenorean who is a powerful socerer in his own right and is more cruel than any orc to have no temptation at all from the Ring, or that would he be loyal to Sauron no matter what when faced with the Ring?

FB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But he would not have been able to master it. He was still a man. The Ring was Sauron's creation and the Ring wanted to be on Sauron's hand again. Eventually it would have betrayed the Mouth to his death.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But he would not have been able to master it. He was still a man. The Ring was Sauron's creation and the Ring wanted to be on Sauron's hand again. Eventually it would have betrayed the Mouth to his death.

But that is immaterial. Galadriel knows as well as anyone the dangers of thr Ring, yet she is tempted. Sam has been told the dangers of the Ring and he has seen the effects on Frodo, yet he is tempted. They resist. What makes us think that the Mouth would not be so tempted and would not give in? Loyalty to Sauron? Really?

FB

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Yeah - but the Anduin is still a long way from Erebor. Whole next river valley over... with a substantial forest in between.

You did not read it....
Well, I was saying in there that in the vales of Anduin the Nazguls spent 50+ days, riding along the river. I was wondering why it took for them so much time, riding on strong and fast horses, while from the Gladden fields to the High Pass was just 10 days of the walking distance.
Considering that from Gladden fields to Erebor is the distance 4 times longer, then an assumption that the Nazguls rode to Erebor fits in this 50+ days.
Other than that, Forkbeard precisely described why the
messenger "feels like Nazgul", and I think his arguments are very strong.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

If the Elves used the three rings, they might tip Sauron off.

They WERE USING the Rings all the time. Remember Gandalf and Galadriel?

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

How could the Three be used in a non-obvious way that would still actually help?

This is very interesting question.I think we could verbalize some speculation.But it does not belong to this topic.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I respect Boromir for putting forth his idea, but that doesn't mean his idea didn't suck.

It sucks from your POV. His intentions was noble : to defend his people in a dire need. How do you know that it wouldn't work?
I think, if it was ineed the Ring which was bringing a power, he would be able to withstand Sauron and to bring his people to the victory and glory. But it will be the deed of self-sacrament, because at the end his life-force will be succumbed to Sauron, turning him into another Wraith.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

About asking a Hobbit's or Dwarf's opinion, the Elves were really the only people in this case who knew what they were talking about

.
If somebody about to send me on the death-march, I would definately like to be taken not like a voiceless dummy, even if my opinion would be discounted.

Originally Posted by Durin1

Is there any coincidence that the dreams were first targeted at Faramir and that he received them often, and that Boromir only receieved it once?

I think because Boromir was sleeping less defending his people and country.

Originally Posted by inked

It would then make sense that he would send as ambassador the son who was most like himself to achieve Denethor's goals.

What exactly was Denethor's goals in sending Boromir?

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Faramir says to Frodo and Sam in Ithilien that he would have liked this quest, but Boromir insisted that he would go.

No. It's Denethor insisted that Boromir would go.
“I would ask you, my father, why it was that I, not he (Boromir) was in Ithilien… It was the Lord of the City that gave the errand to him ” (Faramir to Denethor. ).

Originally Posted by Durin1

Denethor was loathe to send Boromir but I don't think it was anything to do with looking in the palantir.

It has EVERYTHING to do with palantir, because Denethor had a very clear idea what to look for in Imladris.“He would have remembered his father need…He would have brought me a mighty gift” (Denethor, “LOTR”, book III, chapter 4 )