The Lord of the Rings Discussion : Chpts 7 and 8

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Chapter 8 : Fog on the Barrow-Downs

Question 9 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was the wight - truly creepy! Now why is Frodo still awake in the barrow, while the others weren't? Was it just that he was the last one captured, or is it for some other reason?
Perhaps this is as he has the ring...?

Question 12 : Frodo's first big "temptation" - starting with "then a wild thought of escape came to him..." - how does he deal with this, and what are the details of how he's tempted and his thoughts? Did the success here help him in later temptations?
I think it was more fear than anything else that made Frodo think like this.

Question 13 : What is the significance, if any, of Merry's thinking he's another person?

Question 14 : We see a different side of Tom's personality, esp. when he finds the broach - thoughts?
It is his 'remembering' that reenforces the belief that Tom is a spirit of the Earth, having been in the area for a very long time.

Question 15 : And again the dream/vision theme - and why would Tom have the power to make visions appear to them, and who else can do this?
Gandalf can do this IMO.

Question 16 : Finally, they get the knives, which are extremely significant later on down the road - how are these knives special, and why, and when were they specially used further on in the book?
Them being Numenorean blades, made for the wars with Angmar, which is why they prove especially fatal to the Witch-King later on.

Question 17 : is it important for the hobbits to "keep up their merry hearts", as Tom admonished them?
IMO The hobbits must 'keep up their merry hearts' because the best defens against evil is goodwill.

Question 18 : why won't Tom leave his country?
Tom won't leave because he has a certain connection with the area of the Old Forest, and (earth-spirit though he is) too much had changed in the lands about, and tat evil was more prolific at that time.

[Olmer]

The GafferSongs and Poems:
I think this goes right back to the Music of Ainur. Clearly, songs and poems have a literal power in Middle-Earth, and none can match Tom's. For this reason I suspect he's an Ainu.

I like your idea, The Gaffer. Tom is an Ainu spirit, probably one who had been involved in creation of Flora & Fauna. In this case HE IS as he is, before everything else came to life, a creator and overseer.

Rhan... he ....rather a unique being specifically created for Middle Earth.

Totally agree.In mine view he represents a spirit of Earth as it is, being in total oblivion of war games created by earth inhabitants, but in the same his (Earth) happy existence terribly depends on
which side of opposition will prevail.
In this case I see Goldberry, the River daughter, as another Earth spirit important for coninuantiong of the life on it: the Earth nourished by water becomes fertile.

Old Man Willow and the wights - what similarities does anyone see? We're starting to get some descriptions of "evil" characters - what are some common denominators?

It shows to the Hobbits that, besides the Evil of Sauron,on their road there is a lot of other "evil" things, totally independent from the Lord of the Rings .

We see a different side of Tom's personality, esp. when he finds the broach - thoughts?

This is very interesting aspect! Whos broach was it? Melain? Luthien? Elwing?
Maybe somebody happened to stumble somewhere on a few words which is sheading the light on this mistery?

P.S. Very unorthodox revue,Rhan and very observing also.
You did the great work with a questionaire.

[Elanor the Fair]

Question 12 : Frodo's first big "temptation" - starting with "then a wild thought of escape came to him..." - how does he deal with this, and what are the details of how he's tempted and his thoughts? Did the success here help him in later temptations?

In this passage you see Frodo as a true hero. He is frightened and can see the easy way out to save himself, however, he fights this temptation in a physical sense - resisting the urge to put on the ring and run away. It also illustrates the success of the Fellowship - they were bonded by friendship and loyalty. This loyalty provides Frodo with the determination he seeks.

Question 13 : What is the significance, if any, of Merry's thinking he's another person?

It's almost like the artefacts that were in the barrow carry the memory of their former owners. Merry is wearing a circlet - presumably he is remembering the events of past times as experienced by the owner.

Question 14 : We see a different side of Tom's personality, esp. when he finds the broach - thoughts?

Tom is also remembering the lady who once wore the brooch - perhaps the brooch itself is providing some of the memory?? It seems that Tom's domain was wider once and he came more into contact with the ancient people of Eriador. He shows a reflective and sorrowful side to his personality here.

Question 15 : And again the dream/vision theme - and why would Tom have the power to make visions appear to them, and who else can do this?

Perhaps, again, it is related to the knives that Tom has given them. Does Tom's presence unlock the memory in the ancient artefacts?? (Galadriel also has the power to make visions appear - but this is later in the book).

and Question 18 : And why won't Tom leave his country?

Is this one of the last pieces of primeval woodland in Middle-Earth? (Fangorn is the other). Tom is tied in some way to the ancient woodland.

[Nurvingiel]

Excellent write-up Rian! Even though you gave us homework!

Question 1 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was how the Ring had no power over Tom. What are people's thoughts on this?

I think this is a part of Tom's nature. I believe it is Gandalf who refers to him as the Eldest. This is probably all we'll really understand on the matter though, Tom is an enigma. I don't think even Tolkien himself fully understood the nature of Tom Bombadil. I think of him as the first living being to inhabit Middle-earth, since he must have come before the Elves as well. However, wouldn't he have been mentioned in "The Silmarillion" in this case? This leaves the possibility that he's actually an Ainu (or someone else from Valinor) as the Gaffer thought. I think this is definately a possibility, but if an Ainu left Valinor, wouldn't it have been mentioned in the Sil? Maybe he was kicked out (for the singing! j/k) and is never talked about. Nothing is conclusive.

Random theory (someone may have thought of this already, but I didn't have time to read every post, sorry):
What if Tom is Manwe and Goldberry is Yavanna?

Question 2 : So why the singing and rhyming?
*throws fresh tomatoes at Rian* I think this is showing an important theme in Middle-earth: no one is as they appear. A prime example is Strider. Strider appears dangerous like a bandit, when really he is far more dangerous than he appears, but only to his enemies. To his friends he is loyal until death. Tom Bombadil appears to be silly, but is really wise, thoughtful, and highly dangerous in his own way.

Question 3 : And why does Tom appear so ... well, silly?
I believe the singing and rhyming is intertwined with this.

Question 4 : Who do people think that Tom is? What does it mean when Goldberry answers this question with a "He is"? How does Tom answer this question when it's put to him?
See question 1. Goldberry is probably the same manner of being as Tom.

Question 8 : Chance - here we see "chance" mentioned again - a theme throughout Tolkien. What are people's thoughts on this?

I think it is as Gandalf hinted - that there are forces of good trying to "tip the balance" as well. I think it includes those that sent Gandalf, which is why he is seen as a meddler. He is also trying to influence outcomes. The lucky breaks that our heroes get (Gildor and the elves turning up at just the right moment, for example) are due at least in part to these influences.

Question 9 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was the wight - truly creepy! Now why is Frodo still awake in the barrow, while the others weren't? Was it just that he was the last one captured, or is it for some other reason? And here we get a glimpse of the courage of this hobbit, and a theme we'll see later on in many places from other courageous folk - "yes, it looks like I've bought the farm, but I'm going out fighting for what is right!!" (I esp. love how Tolkien portrays this theme with the archers of Morthond in ROTK, and the charge of the Rohirrim).

I think this part further outlines why Frodo was chosen as the Ringbearer. He has some hidden power (still awake) and bravery (going down fighting) that make him able to carry such a burden. There are other scenes that allude to Frodo's "hidden power", such as in the Dead Marshes, when it seemed to Sam that his master seemed to grow, and Gollum seemed to shrink. (I forget why now though, waugh!)

Question 10 : More singing and rhyming - compare and contrast

If Tom is being serious, this outlines how dire the situation is.

Question 13 : What is the significance, if any, of Merry's thinking he's another person?

I think this hints at Merry's later connection with the knife - using it as the original bearer would have wished, to kill the Nazgul Captain. This is a hint at future events, which, in typical Tolkien style, we don't realize was a hint until several hours of contemplating the entire book.

Question 15 : And again the dream/vision theme - and why would Tom have the power to make visions appear to them, and who else can do this?

As the Eldest (whatever that entails) he would have this power. Galadriel, Sauron, the Nazgul, and the Ring are others who give people visions in the book, for good or ill.

Question 16 : Finally, they get the knives, which are extremely significant later on down the road - how are these knives special, and why, and when were they specially used further on in the book?

Chance brought them to the knives, and it only makes sense that they would use such fine blades as their swords.

[Beren3000]

Fine speculation there, Nurvingiel. But I have to disagree with one point. Tom could not be Manwe. It was mentioned somewhere in UT that Manwe would never come to Middle-Earth himself until Dagor Dagorath (the Last Battle)...so there!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by Beren3000
Fine speculation there, Nurvingiel. But I have to disagree with one point. Tom could not be Manwe. It was mentioned somewhere in UT that Manwe would never come to Middle-Earth himself until Dagor Dagorath (the Last Battle)...so there!

aybe ot manwe then, how about another vala?

of course, IMO, he is an earth spirit, so all this is idle speculation

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Question 13 : What is the significance, if any, of Merry's thinking he's another person?

I think this hints at Merry's later connection with the knife - using it as the original bearer would have wished, to kill the Nazgul Captain. This is a hint at future events, which, in typical Tolkien style, we don't realize was a hint until several hours of contemplating the entire book.

I never thought about it that way, but it makes sense now that i do think about it.

[cee2lee2]

I, also, initially thought of the Old Testament "He is" in connection with Tom, but as many have already pointed out, Tom isn't the creator here.
To me he's more like an earth shepherd, as the ents were tree shepherds, caring for one of the last primeval spots in middle earth. But I like the way some of you have talked of him as earth spirit and I'm tending now to agree more with that understanding.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Beren3000
Fine speculation there, Nurvingiel. But I have to disagree with one point. Tom could not be Manwe. It was mentioned somewhere in UT that Manwe would never come to Middle-Earth himself until Dagor Dagorath (the Last Battle)...so there!

D'oh!

Aaah... the enigma of Tom Bombadil.

Good points on my points guys! Complimentary tea at the cafe for all!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Whether you find the Encyclopaedia of Arda
helpful or not, I have found a good essay
on Tom Bombadil and the nature of who
or what he is.

Encyclopaedia of Arda - RE: The Riddle of Tom Bombadil

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Question 11 : Old Man Willow and the wights - what similarities does anyone see? We're starting to get some descriptions of "evil" characters - what are some common denominators? (hint - look at the beginning of the wight's song, before the incantation, and compare with Tom's description of Old Man Willow.) And feel free to talk about Smaug, too, for those who have read The Hobbit!

Question 12 : Frodo's first big "temptation" - starting with "then a wild thought of escape came to him..." - how does he deal with this, and what are the details of how he's tempted and his thoughts? Did the success here help him in later temptations?

Question 13 : What is the significance, if any, of Merry's thinking he's another person?

First, I'd like to think about what's different about them. The barrow-wight is a perversion of the Dunedain's grave. Merry's recollection of a dream concerning the North Kingdom implies that there remains a strong resonance of the original occupant or builders. When Tom destroys the wight, his poems imply that the wights are tied to their barrow and have to lie in wait to ensnare unwary travellers.

The fact that the wight has such important weapons in its hoard suggests to me that it lacks an active intelligence.

Old Man Willow seems to have a more active and conscious malice, and Tom certainly credits him with some considerable power.


(BTW

here's a link to a post on another board asking the question "What if Old Man Willow had got the Ring?")

But the similarities would include their predilection for ensnaring people generally.

[Valandil]

BTW - I suggest we transfer the discussion on Tom Bombadil's nature to another thread, since it goes well beyond the scope of this story. There's one just down the page which has already been bumped recently. I'll post some thoughts there soon.

Just catching up on the reading and this morning covered the part from the hobbits' departure from TB's home up to their capture by the wight. Some questions / thoughts on just what happened there:

Frodo is leading the way - after their ill-timed nap - and passes between two upright stones. It's interesting that he doesn't recognize them, because the description sounds similar to the passage between two boulders that they had been making for. So... DID they reach that point? Or were they somewhere else? We can get the impression too that they drifted eastward unintentionally - so this particular landmark could have been screened from earlier view by a hill. However - did passing through it take them beyond the reach of the wights? Or did it place them in greater peril? When Frodo went through - he passed from mist into darkness (but it WAS night!)... and the others seem to have been detoured or something and were apparently captured first (note that Frodo was the only one to pass through). Frodo lost his pony and was climbing a hill toward the cries for help he had heard. (EDIT: Just looked ahead and verified that they are indeed not the same stones... but still interesting that Frodo passed thru - and the other three hobbits were then taken first - Frodo was only taken after going off to find them)

I always thought the reason Frodo was not laid out inside the barrow just like the other three is that he had been captured later... so the others had been in longer to have preparations made over them. If he HAD been captured earlier, the wight(s?) may well have gotten The Ring. But is a wight already a waith... uh, I mean - wraith - anyway?

Interesting to me also are Merry's words upon waking. I don't know that he would have known of Carn Dum (the capital city of Angmar - an evil kingdom which over-ran the former kingdom in these barrows about 1600 years earlier). But he says; "What in the name of wonder? Of course, I remember! The men of Carn Dum came on us at night and we were worsted. Ah! The spear in my heart! No! No! What am I saying? I have been dreaming. Where did you get to, Frodo?"

This to me backs up the notions that the final thoughts of the man buried there were somehow being transmitted to Merry. And I gather that it was the remnants of this poor fellow's body which had been taken over by the wight... which was a spirit.

From the appendices, we learn that the kingdom of Cardolan (then again subject to Arthedain) was over-run by forces from Angmar in 1409 - that the last prince of Cardolan died then - and that many think his tomb is where the Ringbearer was held captive. We also learn that in 1636, the Great Plague came to these regions, and after this, the Dunedain of Cardolan were no more. It was after that plague that the evil spirits came from Angmar and Rhudaur to occupy the tombs in the barrows. (EDIT: the dike beyond the gap which was the northern border of an ancient kingdom almost had to be the northern boundary of Cardolan)

[Valandil]

Oh - and the Broach... I suspect it just belonged to some un-named beatiful princess, queen or other young lady of old Cardolan. They exist in all lands, at all times... and Tom seems to keep himself up-to-date on what goes on in lands around him. I suspect he would have always known who the principal figures were in Arnor, Arthedain and Cardolan (maybe even Rhudaur as well), would have caught sight of a good many of them (if perhaps unbeknownst to them) and would have met with some, from time-to-time - even befriending a few, as he did Farmer Maggot.

I imagine he had seen her beauty... and that perhaps she had even come to an untimely end when Cardolan was over-run. That to me would more than account for the wistfulness he displays over her memory.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Excellent write-up Rian! Even though you gave us homework!

Thanks! *gets out her grading pen*

Maybe he was kicked out (for the singing! j/k) and is never talked about.

ROTFL!!!!!!

The "embarassing relative" of the Ainur?!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Valandil
Oh - and the Broach... I suspect it just belonged to some un-named beatiful princess, queen or other young lady of old Cardolan. They exist in all lands, at all times... and Tom seems to keep himself up-to-date on what goes on in lands around him. ... I imagine he had seen her beauty... and that perhaps she had even come to an untimely end when Cardolan was over-run. That to me would more than account for the wistfulness he displays over her memory.

Yes, that's what I think, too.

[Rían]

Originally posted by cee2lee2
I, also, initially thought of the Old Testament "He is" in connection with Tom, but as many have already pointed out, Tom isn't the creator here.
To me he's more like an earth shepherd, as the ents were tree shepherds, caring for one of the last primeval spots in middle earth. But I like the way some of you have talked of him as earth spirit and I'm tending now to agree more with that understanding.

Once I read the Sil, I always thought of Tom as one of the Ainur (angelic beings for those who are soon to read the Sil - nudge, nudge ) But yet he seems rather unique ... so now I'm leaning towards kind of an earth spirit thing along the lines of the Oyarsa in C. S. Lewis' space trilogy - a single, unique angelic being specifically assigned to a certain planet. There's other angels around, but only one assigned to this unique position per planet.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Olmer
It shows to the Hobbits that, besides the Evil of Sauron,on their road there is a lot of other "evil" things, totally independent from the Lord of the Rings .

That wasn't what I meant, but that's a very good point! Glad you brought it up.

P.S. Very unorthodox revue,Rhan and very observing also.
You did the great work with a questionaire.

thanks

[cee2lee2]

Rian, the reference to the Oyarsa was very helpful. I can see Tom in that status.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Elanor the Fair
In this passage you see Frodo as a true hero. He is frightened and can see the easy way out to save himself, however, he fights this temptation in a physical sense - resisting the urge to put on the ring and run away. It also illustrates the success of the Fellowship - they were bonded by friendship and loyalty. This loyalty provides Frodo with the determination he seeks.

Exactly - your "easy way out" description is SO true, and also part of most of OUR temptations in RL! I love how it describes it - a picture in his mind of himself safe, and those he values understanding his chocie ... "He thought of himself running free over the grass, grieving for Merry, and Sam, and Pippin, but free and alive himself. Gandalf would admit that there had been nothing else he could do." Such a tempting picture - and of course, it might not even be true ... Yet he overcomes the temptation with courage and love, and does what his hearts tells him is the right thing.

PS - welcome to Entmoot Nice to have you in the discussion

[Rían]

Originally posted by cee2lee2
Rian, the reference to the Oyarsa was very helpful. I can see Tom in that status.

Yes, I just thought of that t'other day when the "earth spirit" thing came up - I'm glad you've read those book and know what I mean who else here has read those books?

(of course, I could be dead wrong - but it's fun to try to fit him in somewhere.)