The Lord of the Rings Discussion : Chpts 7 and 8

[Rían]

Ring a dong dillo, it's TOM BOMBADIL!

When I saw we were going to do this discussion project, I decided to take these two chapters, because I've never been that wild about Tom, and I thought it would "stretch" me a bit. I know there are Mooters out there that like Tom, so let me hear from you guys!


Chapter 7 : In the House of Tom Bombadil

Things have changed drastically in the last 24 hours for our hobbits. Fatty Bolger saw them off into the Old Forest with a prophetic : "I only hope you will not need rescuing before the day is out" - and of course, they DID need rescuing, and Tom's the one that rescued them.

This chapter starts with : "The four hobbits stepped over the wide stone threshold, and stood still, blinking." The last chapter started with hints of other things outside of the Shire; here they have definitely stepped over the "threshold" into things outside of the Shire!

New characters : Goldberry, "daughter of the River". Also we first hear, via Tom, of the kingdoms and people that were in that area. I love how Tolkien throws in glimpses of the past, and you wish he wrote volumes on those other areas, too! It really lends an air of authenticity to his world. Also a tree is definitely introduced as a character - Old Man Willow (rather an undesireable character ... )

So basically this chapter is a brief stopping at the passage between worlds, where they are refreshed and strengthened after having been saved from Old Man Willow, and where they learn more about the world outside of the Shire.

Question 1 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was how the Ring had no power over Tom. What are people's thoughts on this?

Question 2 : So why the singing and rhyming? When my husband graciously agreed to read thru LOTR with me, I really started to lose him in these 2 chapters, and actually had to skip over them to keep his interest! *dodges rotton tomatoes thrown by Tolkien purists * (hey, at least he got thru the book - and loved it!) There's apparently just something special about music and chanting - you see it in several other areas, too - Gandalf, for example.

Question 3 : And why does Tom appear so ... well, silly? There's actually a brief tie-in with Gandalf (as far as laughing) in the last book that I just thought of ... anyone know what I mean?

Question 4 : Who do people think that Tom is? What does it mean when Goldberry answers this question with a "He is"? How does Tom answer this question when it's put to him?

Question 5 : An important hobbit subject - FOOD! Are Tom and Goldberry vegetarians? Who else in Middle Earth have we seen as vegetarians?

Question 6 : Night and Day - why, as Tom said, are some things "ill to hear when the world's in shadow"? Who else said something like this, and when?

Question 7 : Dreams - here are several dreams listed - thoughts, anyone? And what about Frodo's dream, which Gandalf said was actually BEFORE that situation happened? What does that mean? EDIT - nevermind, I was wrong - it was AFTER! But it's still interesting that Frodo saw him so accurately!

and Question 8 : Chance - here we see "chance" mentioned again - a theme throughout Tolkien. What are people's thoughts on this?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

well done rian
a wonderfull intro.

i will try to answer as many of your questions as possible, tomorrow
(1/4 to 2 am here!! )

[Rían]

Chapter 8 : Fog on the Barrow-Downs

One of the creepiest chapters in all of LOTR, IMO! =:-0

A few days with Tom and the fair Goldberry, and then time to leave ... how hard that must have been!

They leave on a beautiful autumn morning, "as nearly heavy of heart as was possible on such a morning". Off they go, then eventually they come to a mysterious stone that somehow is still cool even tho it is sunny outside... *ominous music starts playing* Then they fall asleep, a little longer than is strictly "canny" (as Tolkien hints), and the fog rolls in and they get separated and captured by a character we've only heard of in the previous chapters, but now get to meet (personally, I'd like to decline the invitation! ) - a barrow-wight.

Again we see the day/night theme - Goldberry warns them to make hay - um, haste while the sun shines, and they somehow fall asleep for hours and wake up while the sun is ... setting! and are then captured by the wights. It's in the same style of capture as Old Man Willow used, for Frodo - he knows something is wrong, but yet "he did not run away" - he's unable to...

Again we see the "chanting" theme - both evil (the wight) and good (Frodo's calling for Tom, and 4 for Tom - Tom responding, Tom "killing" the wight, Tom "breaking the spell" on the hobbits, and Tom calling the ponies) - and all these have different "tones" to them, according to the situation. No "merry dols" this time!

New characters : Barrow-wights! Ugh!

So basically this chapter is leaving Tom's house, and getting into trouble over their heads again, and Tom saving them again ... but now they have to move OUT of Tom's domain - hmmm, looks like they need some help, but Tom's now out of the question - who will replace him?

Question 9 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was the wight - truly creepy! Now why is Frodo still awake in the barrow, while the others weren't? Was it just that he was the last one captured, or is it for some other reason? And here we get a glimpse of the courage of this hobbit, and a theme we'll see later on in many places from other courageous folk - "yes, it looks like I've bought the farm, but I'm going out fighting for what is right!!" (I esp. love how Tolkien portrays this theme with the archers of Morthond in ROTK, and the charge of the Rohirrim).

Question 10 : More singing and rhyming - compare and contrast

Question 11 : Old Man Willow and the wights - what similarities does anyone see? We're starting to get some descriptions of "evil" characters - what are some common denominators? (hint - look at the beginning of the wight's song, before the incantation, and compare with Tom's description of Old Man Willow.) And feel free to talk about Smaug, too, for those who have read The Hobbit!

Question 12 : Frodo's first big "temptation" - starting with "then a wild thought of escape came to him..." - how does he deal with this, and what are the details of how he's tempted and his thoughts? Did the success here help him in later temptations?

Question 13 : What is the significance, if any, of Merry's thinking he's another person?

Question 14 : We see a different side of Tom's personality, esp. when he finds the broach - thoughts?

Question 15 : And again the dream/vision theme - and why would Tom have the power to make visions appear to them, and who else can do this?

Question 16 : Finally, they get the knives, which are extremely significant later on down the road - how are these knives special, and why, and when were they specially used further on in the book?

Question 17 : Why is it important for the hobbits to "keep up their merry hearts", as Tom admonished them?

and Question 18 : And why won't Tom leave his country?


Lots of questions! Have at whichever ones you like

[Rían]

thanks chrys, and get some sleep! (just not with your back against a cold stone ... )

[Elanor the Fair]

Thanks, Rian, for your great summary and stimulating questions. I've given my thoughts on just a few.


Who/what is Tom??

I always think of Tom as an existence, not a creation. He is the spark that happens before the flame. He is essentially a part of the primeval Middle-earth. Because he was not created the things in Middle-Earth that were created have no power over him - trees or rings!! It's hard to put these thoughts into words.


Are hobbits vegetarians??

I don't think so - remember that Sam cooked a rabbit! (not in these chapters, however!!)

On the subject of dreams .....

Frodo's dream in Tom's house was a premonition dream. There are many instances of premonitions or foreboding in the Lord of the Rings. I read a thread on that subject recently - in reference to Aragorn and his ancestors. Frodo had another premonition dream in Chapter 5 where he dreams of going over the sea.

Merry and Pippin's dreams are more like nightmares, where they re-lived aspects of the previous day.

[The Gaffer]

And Sam slept like a log.

Nice intro, Rian. I like how you didn't re-write the story and concentrated on the questions.

Songs and Poems:
I think this goes right back to the Music of Ainur. Those who have read the Silmarillion know that the world was created with music, and the the different themes from different Ainur wove together. Old Man Willow is introduced a great singer of songs. Later on in FOTR, we find out that the Elves sing to relive the past. Clearly, songs and poems have a literal power in Middle-Earth, and none can match Tom's. For this reason I suspect he's an Ainu.

I wonder: is this idea Tolkein's own or is it something that he adapted from Norse or some other mythology?

Also, of course, who is Goldberry?

As for silliness, I suspect that, since JRRT decided to introduce this character from another set of stories, he wanted to retain his personality. I don't have a problem with it, though if I was reading it aloud to a man with a 12-gauge, I might feel a bit silly .

If I can accept evil Willow trees, then I can accept blokes with a feather in their cap capering about and saying "ring a ding dillo".

BTW, I think Frodo's dream of Gandalf was "late in coming", not early. More significant is his vision of the Sea and his eventual voyage to Valinor. It's a very powerful spiritual dimension to the journey they are undertaking.

[Beren3000]

Really interesting questions, RÃ*an. Thanks for your effort!

Who or what is Tom?:
I've heard and read a lot of speculation on that topic, but nothing is for certain. I personally maintain that he's one of the Valar because he's not affected by the Ring. But your questions brought up a new possibility. One of the names of God in the Old Testament (Jehovah I think) is roughly translated into "the one who is". So could this possibly mean that Bombadil is Illuvatar himself? I think that this is too large a hypothesis to maintain. Of course this would answer the question of why the Ring does not affect him.

About chance:
I personally think that this is one of the most important themes in the book. Throughout the book, we see many examples of this "chance" that just happens to suit the Fellowship's needs exactly. Also Gandalf calls his meeting with Thorin in The Prancing Pony a "chance meeting". The point is, these are too many coincidences to be just "chance". I think this owes to something like destiny; because the Fellowship's goals are good, Illuvatar and the Valar guide their way through apparently "chance" occurences. Here's a simple example: Boromir's lusting for the Ring. This event is not unusual in itself. But if not for that, Frodo would have gone on to Rohan and probably would never have found enough motivation to go to Mordor. Other examples of small events influencing the course of history like that are found all over the books.

Why the hobbits need merry hearts:
Maybe because the barrow-wights can fog your thoughts and affect you by making some kind of sadness creep up on you. (This appears in Harry Potter with the dementors who suck all joy and happiness of the people around them; the cure: eating chocolate to get your spirits up). And maybe it was just because they really did need cheerful thoughts. After all, they've been buried alive and met with a ghost about a thousand years old, who could be cheerful after that?

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Beren3000
About chance:
I personally think that this is one of the most important themes in the book.

I agree. I think there's a really interesting relationship between chance, predestiny, free will and divine intervention.

In retrospect, it might look like the chance occurences followed a predestined path which suited everyone's needs, but perhaps this could be an illusion of hindsight. Just like the blame game that journalists like to play whenever something bad happens.

People still had to make the right choice. Consider Treebeard. The hobbits' arrival in Fangorn, and "chance-meeting" with him, precipitates Saruman's overthrow. In retrospect, it's tempting to see this as essential to the outcome of the whole book. Without it, Aragorn wouldn't have got the Palantir and lured Sauron into emptying his lands.

There may have been any number of other possibilities; but they all depended on goodly sorts choosing to do what was right.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Chapter 7 : In the House of Tom Bombadil

Question 1 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was how the Ring had no power over Tom. What are people's thoughts on this?
The ring has no power over Tom because (I feel) of who he is [see answer to Q4]. re: Council of Elrond; Erestor states that tom has a power over the ring, which Gandalf refutes by saying rather that the ring has no power over him.


Question 2 : So why the singing and rhyming? When my husband graciously agreed to read thru LOTR with me, I really started to lose him in these 2 chapters, and actually had to skip over them to keep his interest! *dodges rotton tomatoes thrown by Tolkien purists * (hey, at least he got thru the book - and loved it!) There's apparently just something special about music and chanting - you see it in several other areas, too - Gandalf, for example.
I feel that the excessive amount of singing/rhyming was due to the fact that Music is an integral part of Tolkien's world, do not forget that Arda was created by the music of the Ainur.

Question 3 : And why does Tom appear so ... well, silly? There's actually a brief tie-in with Gandalf (as far as laughing) in the last book that I just thought of ... anyone know what I mean?
Tom's silliness is pure lightheartedness. These things do not really affect him, and so he can afford to joke about them, it also serves to put the Hobbits more at ease, after their scares with the Nazgul and with Old Man Willow.

Question 4 : Who do people think that Tom is? What does it mean when Goldberry answers this question with a "He is"? How does Tom answer this question when it's put to him?
I feel that Tom is not a normal being as such, but more a being of the earth, a spirit if you will. re: The Council of Elrond; Galdor states that power is not in Tom to defy the Enemy, unless that power is in the earth itself

Question 5 : An important hobbit subject - FOOD! Are they vegetarians?
I do not think Hobbits are necessarily vegetarian, do not forget that in the Hobbit, one of the Breakfast items Bilbo has before he sets off to meet Thorin and company is Bacon and Eggs!

Question 6 : Night and Day - why, as Tom said, are some things "ill to hear when the world's in shadow"? Who else said something like this, and when?
Gandalf said something of this nature in chapter 2 'The Shadow of the Past'

"Last night you began to tell me strange things about my ring, Gandalf," he [frodo] said "And then you stopped because you said that such matters were best left until daylight."

[Rían]

Thanks, guys

Just a quick fix - I meant to ask were Tom and Goldberry vegetarians, not the Hobbits (who I know are NOT!) Kind of a what-types-of-foods-do-different-folks-eat question.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Question 1 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was how the Ring had no power over Tom. What are people's thoughts on this?

i've posted on this a lot in the past... but i think it boils down, not to any great power on the part of tom, but more, a certain inner peace with himself and his surroundings... he had no grand desires for good or evil and was perfectly content with his existance... so the ring had nothing to work on... i think a similar inner peace, but to a lesser extent, is why hobbits were so resilient against the ring's power

Question 2 : So why the singing and rhyming? When my husband graciously agreed to read thru LOTR with me, I really started to lose him in these 2 chapters, and actually had to skip over them to keep his interest! *dodges rotton tomatoes thrown by Tolkien purists * (hey, at least he got thru the book - and loved it!) There's apparently just something special about music and chanting - you see it in several other areas, too - Gandalf, for example.

i think it reflects tolkien's personal interest in poetry, especially of the nursery-rhyme variety... it was a good excuse to pull some of his own works out

Question 3 : And why does Tom appear so ... well, silly? There's actually a brief tie-in with Gandalf (as far as laughing) in the last book that I just thought of ... anyone know what I mean?

somewhat tied in with question one, it's an expression of his self-content... he wasn't self-concious in any way, and was not afraid to express himself... even if others might see it as 'silly'

Question 4 : Who do people think that Tom is? What does it mean when Goldberry answers this question with a "He is"? How does Tom answer this question when it's put to him?

most likely a creation of eru's directly connected with arda... as opposed to the ainur, who were from outside... an 'ideal elf' of sorts... goldberry, more likely a maiar

i'll get back on some others...

[Valandil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
People still had to make the right choice. Consider Treebeard. The hobbits' arrival in Fangorn, and "chance-meeting" with him, precipitates Saruman's overthrow. In retrospect, it's tempting to see this as essential to the outcome of the whole book. Without it, Aragorn wouldn't have got the Palantir and lured Sauron into emptying his lands.

Treebeard? Fangorn? Palantir? Who are THEY??? Say... you're not giving away the rest of the story, are ye?

And what's all this talk about Valar and Ainar? Who's he???

[Rían]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Songs and Poems:
I think this goes right back to the Music of Ainur. Those who have read the Silmarillion know that the world was created with music, and the the different themes from different Ainur wove together. Old Man Willow is introduced a great singer of songs. Later on in FOTR, we find out that the Elves sing to relive the past. Clearly, songs and poems have a literal power in Middle-Earth, and none can match Tom's. For this reason I suspect he's an Ainu.

And I encourage any LOTR readers who haven't read the Sil to read it! Music is indeed very important in Tolkien's works.

BTW, I think Frodo's dream of Gandalf was "late in coming", not early. More significant is his vision of the Sea and his eventual voyage to Valinor. It's a very powerful spiritual dimension to the journey they are undertaking.

Whoops, thanks for the correction! I fixed it

[Rían]

Originally posted by Beren3000
Who or what is Tom?:
I've heard and read a lot of speculation on that topic, but nothing is for certain. I personally maintain that he's one of the Valar because he's not affected by the Ring. But your questions brought up a new possibility. One of the names of God in the Old Testament (Jehovah I think) is roughly translated into "the one who is". So could this possibly mean that Bombadil is Illuvatar himself? I think that this is too large a hypothesis to maintain. Of course this would answer the question of why the Ring does not affect him.

Yes, when I read the "He is" quote, I thought about the "I am" name of God in the OT, too (and also used by Jesus in the NT - that's when the Jews wanted to stone him, because that meant he was claiming to be equal with God). But then, given other info about Tom that was given at the Council of Elrond, I pretty much ruled that out. Elrond says he was called "oldest and fatherless" by the elves, but Gandalf says he can't alter the Ring itself, or break its power over others, and that he is withdrawn into a little land within bounds that he has set - doesn't sound like Iluvatar! (To those who haven't read the Silmarillion - Iluvatar is the creator of all, and Valar and Maiar are angelic beings created before the earth.) (I hope the Sil references aren't too distracting, BTW - I hope they encourage people to read the Sil!)

About chance:
I personally think that this is one of the most important themes in the book. Throughout the book, we see many examples of this "chance" that just happens to suit the Fellowship's needs exactly. Also Gandalf calls his meeting with Thorin in The Prancing Pony a "chance meeting". The point is, these are too many coincidences to be just "chance". I think this owes to something like destiny; because the Fellowship's goals are good, Illuvatar and the Valar guide their way through apparently "chance" occurences. Here's a simple example: Boromir's lusting for the Ring. This event is not unusual in itself. But if not for that, Frodo would have gone on to Rohan and probably would never have found enough motivation to go to Mordor. Other examples of small events influencing the course of history like that are found all over the books.

Yes, the chance theme is all over the book, and little hints by Gandalf that it's not "mere" chance ...

Why the hobbits need merry hearts:
Maybe because the barrow-wights can fog your thoughts and affect you by making some kind of sadness creep up on you. (This appears in Harry Potter with the dementors who suck all joy and happiness of the people around them; the cure: eating chocolate to get your spirits up). And maybe it was just because they really did need cheerful thoughts. After all, they've been buried alive and met with a ghost about a thousand years old, who could be cheerful after that?

Interesting cross-ref to Harry Potter - I haven't read the books. I like that dementor cure, tho!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Last Child of Ungoliant
Question 4 : Who do people think that Tom is? What does it mean when Goldberry answers this question with a "He is"? How does Tom answer this question when it's put to him?
I feel that Tom is not a normal being as such, but more a being of the earth, a spirit if you will. re: The Council of Elrond; Galdor states that power is not in Tom to defy the Enemy, unless that power is in the earth itself

Yes, that bit that Galdor says makes me think that he might NOT be one of the Valar, but rather a unique being specifically created for Middle Earth. After all, one would think Elrond would know if he's a Vala or not! And Galadriel had lived among the Valar - I'd like to hear HER opinion on it!

Well, Tom seems to be pretty unique - but really doesn't come into the story much at all after this (and I don't want to get TOO sidetracked to Sil issues, either, altho they naturally come up when discussing Tom). Maybe he's just one of those little references that Tolkien throws in to give more depth to the story.

Question 6 : Night and Day - why, as Tom said, are some things "ill to hear when the world's in shadow"? Who else said something like this, and when?
Gandalf said something of this nature in chapter 2 'The Shadow of the Past'

Yes, that's what I was thinking of!

[Rían]

As far as the merry hearts - what it reminded me of was the bit in ROTK, I think, where the hobbits were saying that Gandalf laughs more than he talks now, or something like that. I think there is just something cheerful about true goodness. I like how altho Gandalf is really committed to his task, he's still free to laugh when appropriate. IOW, appropriate cheerfulness is actually good and right and one should strive to keep one's spirits up, like Tom said.

(or was the reference from Unfinished Tales? I don't remember ... does anyone else?)

[brownjenkins]

on TB and the Ring from letters (stretching the rules a bit):

"The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless." (Letters, p. 178)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Thanks, guys

Just a quick fix - I meant to ask were Tom and Goldberry vegetarians, not the Hobbits (who I know are NOT!) Kind of a what-types-of-foods-do-different-folks-eat question.

If you believe that Tom is an earth-spirit, he would surely have to be vegetarian, holding the greatest respect for all beings of the earth.

[Rían]

Yes, that's true - and he kinda reminded me of Beorn in The Hobbit, another guy whose menu seemed to be all vegetarian.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Question 7 : Dreams - here are several dreams listed - thoughts, anyone? And what about Frodo's dream, which Gandalf said was actually BEFORE that situation happened? What does that mean? EDIT - nevermind, I was wrong - it was AFTER! But it's still interesting that Frodo saw him so accurately!
I would like to have a good think, and come up with loads of intelligent things to say at this juncture, but as one of my points for my chapter concerns dreams, I am going to keep schtum!!
Otherwise I wouldn't have anything to say later!!

and Question 8 : Chance - here we see "chance" mentioned again - a theme throughout Tolkien. What are people's thoughts on this?
I don't quite know about the chance of things, certainly hobbits would have seen it as chance, butthe valar, and possibly maiar, would not IMO see occurences as chance, as they should know that Eru had planned all things, and so it would have been the natural unfolding of fate, rather than chance.

Now, if any of that made any sense, please let me know!!