The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 2: The Council of Elrond

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Good. So what happens to it?

[Rían]

when he falls off the tower and onto the spiky thing and it rotates around and he goes plunk into the water, the ring falls off and the monster thing in front of Moria eats it ...


oh wait, that's the movie ....

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

So what happens to it?

Hm... What happened? It stayed with the wielder. So, Saruman has chances to come back. I'm sure that the ring on his finger has been the real Ring of power, maybe, not such potent as the One, but nevertheless the first one close to the originals. After all elves made a lot of experimental rings before they finally were able to grasp the whole conceptualization of Sauron's idea.
As Forkbeard has previously mentioned, originally both of them are Maiar of Aule.
What would Sauron come up with, which wouldn't be undestandable to the Wisest of the Wise, to Saruman (Curunir, the "Men-of-skill"), the eldest of the Order of Wizards, with "deep" knowledge and "marvellously skilled" hands.
As I see, Tolkien already hinted on such possibility of the Ring making.
'Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth.' (LoTR )
Then, if we will take in account the fact that he, indeed, made the Power Ring of his own ( power of the One Ring, as I suggested, was greatly exagerated by Sauron, for the main purpouse of the Ring was channeling the magic and the life force to the owner), we might say that as time goes by Saruman has very great chances to take a visible shape again (like in 21 century? )and became a powerfull evil figure.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Hm... What happened? It stayed with the wielder. So, Saruman has chances to come back. I'm sure that the ring on his finger has been the real Ring of power, maybe, not such potent as the One, but nevertheless the first one close to the originals. After all elves made a lot of experimental rings before they finally were able to grasp the whole conceptualization of Sauron's idea.
As Forkbeard has previously mentioned, originally both of them are Maiar of Aule.
What would Sauron come up with, which wouldn't be undestandable to the Wisest of the Wise, to Saruman (Curunir, the "Men-of-skill"), the eldest of the Order of Wizards, with "deep" knowledge and "marvellously skilled" hands.
As I see, Tolkien already hinted on such possibility of the Ring making.
'Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth.' (LoTR )
Then, if we will take in account the fact that he, indeed, made the Power Ring of his own ( power of the One Ring, as I suggested, was greatly exagerated by Sauron, for the main purpouse of the Ring was channeling the magic and the life force to the owner), we might say that as time goes by Saruman has very great chances to take a visible shape again (like in 21 century? )and became a powerfull evil figure.

Where's the quote from, Olmer?

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Then, if we will take in account the fact that he, indeed, made the Power Ring of his own ( power of the One Ring, as I suggested, was greatly exagerated by Sauron, for the main purpouse of the Ring was channeling the magic and the life force to the owner), we might say that as time goes by Saruman has very great chances to take a visible shape again (like in 21 century? )and became a powerfull evil figure.

Oh blimey

[Rían]

rofl!!

[The Gaffer]

The old ones are always the best..

[Rían]

Hey, I'm only 48!

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Where's the quote from, Olmer?

LoTR The Foreword.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Olmer

LoTR The Foreword.

Okay, looked it up. That's not what it says.

Exact quote (from my August 1971 printing of fellowship)pg x. (emphasis mine)

The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dur would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Morder the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth. In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as slaves.

Other arrangements could be devised according to the tastes or views of those who like allegory or topical reference. But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence.

Tolkien says it didn't happen, and that it might have happened in an alternate universe that he personally would "dislike".

No ring for Saruman.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

:
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No ring for Saruman.

While Olmer's quote may have seemed misleading without the surrounding context, it does say that Saruman might (in that case) have "found in Mordor the missing links in his own research into Ring-lore"

So I think you draw the wrong conclusion - especially to look at this part from the forward only, and not the parts in "The Council of Elrond".

It's inaccurate to say, "No ring for Saruman"

It IS accurate to say, "No Great Ring for Saruman!"

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Valandil

While Olmer's quote may have seemed misleading without the surrounding context, it does say that Saruman might (in that case) have "found in Mordor the missing links in his own research into Ring-lore"

So I think you draw the wrong conclusion - especially to look at this part from the forward only, and not the parts in "The Council of Elrond".

It's inaccurate to say, "No ring for Saruman"

It IS accurate to say, "No Great Ring for Saruman!"

No "ring of power" for Saruman? How many levels of ring are we assuming? Is having a ring of power like being pregnant...either one is or one isn't?

In the Council of Elrond, I see that Gandalf reports Saruman calls himself "Saruman ring maker." You say (and I verified) that "he wore a ring on his finger".

But he also wore robes "woven of all colours". Those weren't magical. Where does it say that this ring is significant, and, if it is, why isn't it collected?

[Valandil]

Why? I don't know. But Gandalf seems to really be making a point about it in this chapter - noting that Saruman both wore a ring, and called himself a "ring-maker". I think Gandalf calling attention to it gives it a good deal of significance - especially since the plot of this story revolves around rings, not robes of many colors.

Tolkien never really defined with finality whether the sum total of all rings of power was 1 + 3 + 7 + 9 = 20. Some times he seems to indicate so, other times that there were additional, "lesser" rings (which works well with Gandalf not realizing the true identity of the One when Bilbo finds it).

But... I don't suppose ALL the loose ends in this story got tidied up. Maybe Saruman lost it, or threw it away. Maybe it vanished into smoke when he did. Maybe it was picked up from where he had fallen and became an heirloom of a shire family. But being likely "lesser" in nature, and without a connection to Sauron (him being now dead with more finality), it may have had no power to work harm. Maybe it became powerless with the destruction of the One, and the death of Sauron (in which case, again, Saruman may have discarded it in bitterness).

So - I don't know what happened to it ultimately, but I've seen enough to be convinced that Saruman was dabbling in the making of Rings of Power, and possibly achieved some limited results.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Okay, looked it up. That's not what it says.

You looked up? What an inquisitive soul you are!!

Of course, I could quote a half of chapter, but I'm prefering to give "narrowed to the point" quotes, so the main idea wouldn't be lost in too much "water".
And the main Tolkien's idea is that Saruman, a disciple of Aule and the most advanced among maiar, could very well able to create the ring of Power of his own.
If Tolkien wanted to reject such notions completely, he wouldn't be toying with an idea of the posibility of Saruman's come back.
He is saying in his Letters that the 'next' evil in Middle Earth will be 'afoot', and in his barely started sequence of LOTR he is sprouting this idea that the "evil" did not disappear completely, and it's coming back. "Deep indeed runs the roots of Evil,...and the black sap is strong in them. That tree will never be slain. Let men hew it as often as they may, it will thrust up shoots again as soon as they turn aside."(HoME. XII)
But more strong suggestion could be found in the last sentences, when the youngest son of Beregond, who still remembers the War and terrifying attacks of the Ringbearers, upon going alone at night, all of a sudden has got a peculiar feeling."Suddenly he smelt it,...he smelt the old Evil and knew it for what it was."
Seems almost plausible to me that Saruman's ring could help him to materialise himself in some way, or with his Ring he came back as a spirit of evilness.

So, true, Tolkien did not say that it has happened in the Third age, but he did not discard the idea of such event in the ME future, and not in "an alternate universe ".

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

So your argument is, "Yes, Tolkien dropped the ball on this idea in LOTR, but, according to one of those boxes of stuff his son had printed, he considered adding it in someway, somewhere."

I see.

A "narrowed to the point quote" that wasn't an "edited to prove an opposite" quote would be better form. You have undermined your credibility, here.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Why? I don't know. But Gandalf seems to really be making a point about it in this chapter - noting that Saruman both wore a ring, and called himself a "ring-maker". I think Gandalf calling attention to it gives it a good deal of significance - especially since the plot of this story revolves around rings, not robes of many colors.

See, here is where we differ. I don't think this story is about rings. It's not the Sil. And Saruman is a proved liar. Maybe he just throws in the ring bit to make himself seem important. Rings are tools in it, perhaps, but the story is essentially about the Hobbits, who have come to "trouble the councils of the great."
Now, I'm sure Tolkien was a little ambivilent about that. He'd already shopped around his sweeping mythological pet project, and been assured by friends no one cared. People, however, wanted to hear more about HOBBITS. So he spent a number of years telling that story, which emerged as LOTR. After its original success he did some editing, but it didn't become the Silmarillion, because it couldn't.

Tolkien never really defined with finality whether the sum total of all rings of power was 1 + 3 + 7 + 9 = 20.

In LOTR it is. They count them, often. Gandalf establishes the wherabouts of all of them during this chapter, "except for the Three, which we do not speak of."

Some times he seems to indicate so, other times that there were additional, "lesser" rings (which works well with Gandalf not realizing the true identity of the One when Bilbo finds it).

Because he believed Saruman, the Council's expert. There was originally doubt, then he did the research on his own. (similar to my process, here ) He doesn't say, "So, that's the A list, but we'll be on the lookout for other rings, because there's a few lying around, probably. " Or, "Treebeard, keep an eye on him and confiscate his jewelry."

But... I don't suppose ALL the loose ends in this story got tidied up. Maybe Saruman lost it, or threw it away. Maybe it vanished into smoke when he did. Maybe it was picked up from where he had fallen and became an heirloom of a shire family. But being likely "lesser" in nature, and without a connection to Sauron (him being now dead with more finality), it may have had no power to work harm. Maybe it became powerless with the destruction of the One, and the death of Sauron (in which case, again, Saruman may have discarded it in bitterness).

So - I don't know what happened to it ultimately, but I've seen enough to be convinced that Saruman was dabbling in the making of Rings of Power, and possibly achieved some limited results.

If the story was about Rings, you'd know for sure.

[Valandil]

After re-reading portions of "Rings of Power and the Third Age", I've come to the conclusion that Saruman's ring would have been rendered powerless by the destruction of The One... just like the Three Elven Rings were, although they were made without Sauron touching them.

So... it would have ended up an ornamental piece of jewelry... maybe in the Shire.