LOTR Discussion Project: Book V, Chapter 4: The Siege of Gondor

[Gordis]

I think Denethor, as a true High Numenorean had mind-reading powers and read some Pippin's thoughts. Gandalf implied as much.

The palantiri are not the devices made for mind-reading. It is but a means of communication, like cellphone or, more precisely, like a video-conference. If users have own mind-reading powers (like Sauron) they can do that via palantiri. That is how I see it.

[Gordis]

New page-bug!

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

But he would use it to monitor happenings around the city in general. He amy have just caught a glimpse of Pippin on the way...

I guess I assumed he'd be more interested in things happening further away, at Osgilliath and such, then things in Minas Tirith itself of which he could more easily have gotten news of through servants. The PalantÃ*r seems both a too dangerous and too valuable a possession to use for trivial things.

Could you elaborate on that?

Well, the Shire is a safe place, and Pippin was still under age when they left. He was still considered young, in his (what was the term again..) irresponsible tweens? He didn't need to act mature in the Shire, there were little to none life-threatening situations he could suddenly find himself in alone and it wasn't expected of him yet either. If you're a Hobbit and you don't have to act mature, would you do so? No, of course not! Bring on the fun!

And still being under age he wouldn't have been put in charge of important things yet, there would always have been someone who would be able to make those decisions instead of him. So he never had to show he could be mature, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have possessed already some maturity before he needed it in Minas Tirith.

[Landroval]

I think Denethor, as a true High Numenorean had mind-reading powers and read some Pippin's thoughts.

According to Osanwe kenta, no mind can read another mind against its will; even Melkor could at best _guess_ what others are thinking. The best Denethor could do is to lessen the negative impact the body has on receiving and transmiting thoughts.

[Gordis]

I believe the keywords here are "against its will". Every mind can be closed. But the natural state of the mind is openness. Gandalf, surely closed his mind to Denethor, but, I believe, Pippin's untrained mind was open by default.

Pengolodh says that all minds (sáma, pl. sámar) are equal in status, though they differ in capacity and strength. A mind by its nature perceives another mind directly. But it cannot perceive more than the existence of another mind (as something other than itself, though of the same order) except by the will of both parties (Note 1). The degree of will, however, need not be the same in both parties. If we call one mind G (for guest or comer) and the other H (for host or receiver), then G must have full intention to inspect H or to inform it. But knowledge may be gained or imparted by G, even when H is not seeking or intending to impart or to learn: the act of G will be effective, if H is simply "open" (láta; látie "openness"). This distinction, he says, is of the greatest importance.
"Openness" is the natural or simple state (indo) of a mind that is not otherwise engaged (Note 2). In "Arda Unmarred" (that is, in ideal conditions free from evil) openness would be the normal state. Nonetheless any mind may be closed (pahta). This requires an act of conscious will: Unwill (avanir). It may be made against G, against G and some others, or be a total retreat into "privacy" (aquapahtie).

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I believe the keywords here are "against its will". Every mind can be closed. But the natural state of the mind is openness. Gandalf, surely closed his mind to Denethor, but, I believe, Pippin's untrained mind was open by default.

Open by default wouldn't count much, since any mind that can close itself when becoming aware of inspection - not to mention that the "will" necessary on behalf of two incarnate minds ought to be (in my opinion) an active faculty.

Nevertheless, there seems to be just a family trait (shared by Faramir) in understanding others better than a normal person would - not a better mind reading faculty in itself:

Originally Posted by The stewards, RotK

[Faramir] read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Open by default wouldn't count much, since any mind that can close itself when becoming aware of inspection - not to mention that the "will" necessary on behalf of two incarnate minds ought to be (in my opinion) an active faculty.:

I suggest we stop discussing Osanwe kenta here, it is not allowed in this thread . Soon the mods will be on us. Anyway, Osanwe is quite difficult to interpret, IMO, as it applies to the Elves and to the "Arda unmarred". But I am far from being a specialist in these matters.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Nevertheless, there seems to be just a family trait (shared by Faramir) in understanding others better than a normal person would - not a better mind reading faculty in itself:

I would say, Faramir and Denethor were two men in "whom the blood of Numenor ran almost true." So, I believe their abilities were shared by High Numenoreans of old. Aragorn must have had similar powers.

[Landroval]

I would say, Faramir and Denethor were two men in "whom the blood of Numenor ran almost true." So, I believe their abilities were shared by High Numenoreans of old. Aragorn must have had similar powers.

Well, that is a logical fallacy in my interpretation; I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue .

[Gordis]

It would have been a logical fallacy if the fact that Faramir and Denethor both had heightened perception of other people's minds were taken out of the context of all the Tolkien's world.

Yes, the fact that both Mr. Smith and Mr. Smith Junior have a good hearing, doesn't imply that they are the last remnants of a special people characterized by an extremely acute hearing. More likely it is a family treat.

But if we consider all that is written about the High Numenoreans in general, Elendil, Isildur, Elendur, Aragorn etc., as well as Faramir and Denethor, in particular, it is a sound interpretetion IMHO.

`Ah well, sir,' said Sam, `you said my master had an elvish air and that was good and true. But I can say this: you have an air too, sir, that reminds me of, of – well, Gandalf, of wizards.
'Maybe,' said Faramir. `Maybe you discern from far away the air of Númenor.'

Aragorn says similar thing before he dies:

` I am the last of the Númenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days

All of them attribute their qualities to their high Numenorean blood.

In a way, yes, it is a family trait, as reading the HOME (Peoples of ME) one concludes that the line of the Stewards also descended from Elendil - but not by the partilineal descent, it seems. And Aragorn and Denethor & sons are the only pure-blood Numenoreans we meet in LOTR.

I have no time now to seek for more quotes, sorry. I hope you understand what I mean.

[crickhollow]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I can't help but think Pippin didn't really mature all of a sudden. Only a few days ago he nicked the PalantÃ*r to take a peek, so he still possessed that irresponsible streak there. Only ancient, war-expecting Minas Tirith isn't the place to revel in that. In a way I think Pippin already possessed maturity when he first started out with Frodo and Sam to Crickhollow...

I think it's really a litle bit of both. He's always been the young and light-hearted one...a quality that is both endearing and frustrating, depending on the circumstances. But the poor guy is completely overwhelmed among the might men of Minas Tirith (oo, look at me and my aliteration). Also I think up until this point his experience has been long periods of monotonous trudging across field and under mountain (perfect for acting up), punctuated by brief moments of utter terror. (hey, he mostly slept through the whole kidnapping at the hands of orcs business.)

But here in Minas Tirith, he cannot any longer avoid the danger that he is in. On top of that, he is separated from his best friend. And whistling in the dark really only helps if you're not completely on your own. I get the feeling that both Merry and Pippin could face anything in the world, so long as he had the support of the other. Each feels the loss of the other keenly.



[edit: so have we decided that Denethor was not using the palantir to spy on pippin? I have another question on that subject. is it safe to assume that nothing Denethor sees through the palantir is secret from Sauron? Also, I don't know much about the seeing stones, but I'd always assumed that it was a communication device, and that it allowed to you see distant places. but not that it allowed to to eavesdrop on conversations. Seems like if it allowed you to do that, Sauron had only to listen in on the Council of Elrond (or really any of the significant moments in the story) for him to get an idea of where the ring was headed.

[CrazySquirrel]

You are quite right about the Palantiri. There is an essay about them in the Unfinished Tales.
No eavesdropping is possible, they don't transmit sound- only thoughts of the two users.

[crickhollow]

Thanks for lending your expertise, CrazySquirrel. I think we've established that the Denethor was not using his palantir to spy on Gandalf and Pippin, which means that he had others reporting to him (members of Beregond's company, or others whom Pippin encountered), and also, as Gandalf tells Pippin, he is surmising much even from the little that Pippin tells. which is a much different thing than actual mind-reading.