LoTR discussion project: Book III, Chapters 8 and 9:

[Elanor the Fair]

Finally - I've caught up with my reading. I love your interesting discussion points, Forkbeard!

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

6) Two sub-themes come out in the chapters on the Rohirrim that appear nowhere else (except to a lesser extent in the Shire): legends come to life, and more specifically children's stories come to life. This is a good place to discuss Tolkien's views of such things, On Fairy Stories, where or what in the Shire is an analogue, and why in these chapters does this theme come to the fore and why is it important for this people?

I'm not really sure about this question, but I'm willing to have a go at it!!

I suppose you could say that the Old Forest near Buckland is a parallel for Fangorn Forest. Both forests are the subject of "larger than life" stories and legends that are told in an oral tradition to young children. That is the difference, I surmise, between Gondor and Rohan - Rohan relies on an oral tradition for its tales and history. These then become altered and exaggerated - tales of the ents, Galadriel, hobbits etc. Gondor, on the other hand, relies on accurate history - recorded on parchment.

In addition, in a sort of convoluted way...

These oral tales are indicative of the individual culture of Rohan - and links them to their ancestors in the North (by their folk tales about the hobbits)

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

7) Speaking of the Battles of the Fords: why is so little mention made of Theodred, Theoden's son and heir? The only mention in the entire book is on the lips of Wormtongue a few chapters back. Why?

There is another mention by Theoden himself.

Theodred my son is slain.

This "little mention" illustrates better than anything else how commonplace death in battle must have been to the people of Rohan. People expected to lose loved ones - particularly males.

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

12) Aragorn is certainly one of the great ones, why is he staying behind or not included in Treebeard's invitation?

This part of the book is like the end of a sub-story for Aragorn. It begins with him having to take over the leadership when Gandalf fell. He constantly questioned himself over the choices he had to make, reaching crisis point when Frodo and Sam disappear, Boromir is slain and Merry and Pippin are taken. He then is mobilised into action with a clear sense of knowing the right decision to make.

The frantic race across the plains of Rohan, the interception by Gandalf, the Helm's Deep interlude are all a part of the journey that Aragorn as a person is going through in this part of the book. Meeting Merry and Pippin at Isenguard is the end of this sub-story. Aragorn needed to find that closure by remaining with the hobbits and talking about all the events that had occurred.

Doubtless both Gandalf and Treebeard were aware of this.

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

20) Tolkien and "wise sayings": Proverbs occur throughout LoTR. IN this chapter there is, "One who can not cast away a treasure at need is in fetters." Are there others in these two chapters, and what is the importance of such proverbial lore in LoTR? Entertainment? Other?

The use of "wise sayings" and proverbs etc builds the culture of The Lord Of The Rings. It's like Aesop's fables and other traditional tales that have "messages". These "wise sayings" shape the book so that it resembles a cultural story or folk tale and has less of the characteristics of a novel.

I love the "wise sayings" in the earlier chapters where Gandalf and Theoden are speaking of Eomer.

Faithful heart may have forward tongue.

and

To crooked eyes, truth may wear a wry face.

These sayings are also an example of economical use of language - they say a lot in a few words. This contributes, also, to the characterisation of Gandalf and his wisdom.

Maybe we should start a list of the proverbs and wise sayings that we encounter throughout the book. It would be great to analyse them for their meanings.

Anyway, that's all from me!

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

These oral tales are indicative of the individual culture of Rohan - and links them to their ancestors in the North (by their folk tales about the hobbits)

Good points. It certainly crops up in many places in Tolkien's works.

In LOTR he seems to be showing how genuine wisdom can be passed down the generations in the form of folklore and legends. In LOTR, many of these little nuggets are very cleverly worked, such as the "come athelas" rhyme, when Gandalf berates the Master Healer:

to find someone of less lore and more wisdom who still keeps some in his house!

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

Meeting Merry and Pippin at Isenguard is the end of this sub-story.

Indeed, they were, after all, his primary reason for allowing Frodo to leave.

My mind may be muddled with age, but IIRC, although Aragorn lays claim to his title at Theoden's gates, he is not treated as "royalty" as such by the Rohirrim, and Theoden is very clear that he is his own master throughout (e.g. riding out from the Hornburg at dawn).

Further, Treebeard certainly wouldn't know him from Adam. I guess that the main reason for their discussion would be what to do with Saruman, and therefore Aragorn would have no particular reason to be invited.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

Maybe we should start a list of the proverbs and wise sayings that we encounter throughout the book.

That would a grand idea. Care to start it off?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

We know what Gandalf knows: the trees and the Ents, what's happened at Isengard, and so on. But Gandalf tells nothing of this to Theoden and Aragorn, but simply says, "I'm going to Isengard, you can come if you want. Otherwise I'll see you in a couple days at Edoras. Toodles."

The first time that I read it I thought: "Okay, I don't know where Gandalf has been the last few days but he clearly has gone bunkers somewhere between if he wants to ride with 25 men into Saruman''s fortified Isengard." Madness. Of course we knew that the Ents have marched to Isengard but we didn't know how they had fared. It was rather nice to let us find that one out along with the others when Merry and Pippin tell that tale.

As they go through the new forest, a pathway is provided for them. Here Legolas expresses his wish to walk among the trees. But the surprising thing is that Gimli the dwarf rhapsodizes in beautiful prose about the Glittering Caves of the Hornburg, a moving passage. My own inclination is for the trees, but almost Gimli makes a believer of me. The bargain is struck that Gimli will visit Fangorn with Legolas if Legolas comes to the Caves with Gimli.

In my current reread of LoTR, I've been paying special attention to Gimli, only to find him almost the only non-hobbit character where his personality comes shining through everything he says. I think I'll be changing 'my favourite character" in my profile before the re-read is over.

But you have to hand it to the little guy: he does manage to make you long for a peek in Aglarond yourself! He waxes more lyrical about his caves than an Elf does over intriging forests! That's not a sight you see often. Gimli is obviously a Dwarf with strong passions. In a later chapter Gandalf describes Gimli's description of the caves sufficient for even the most curious Hobbit. High praise.

As the company finally reach the gates of Isengard and realize that Saruman has been overthrown, they spy two figures on the wreck about the gates.

This is one of the times I wish LoTR wasn't a book but a painting. The scene he describes here is one I would have loved to see!

2) Why has Legolas not encountered Ents before? Surely he must have at least heard stories, and desired to seek them out?

Ents don't appear to dwell anywhere but Entwood in the third age. It may have been that the Elves of Mirkwood know only the tales that were passed on from the first or second aera when Ents would have no doubt have been more common. It is quite possibly the Mirkwood-Elves reckoned the Ents to have gone extinct.

9) Why are Legolas and Aragorn silent at the finding of the hobbits?

Probably from shock.

12) Aragorn is certainly one of the great ones, why is he staying behind or not included in Treebeard's invitation?

All three: Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas were meant to have gone with the others to eat. Their staying behind can easily be explained by their desire to hear from their Hobbit-friends how they had fared.

[Bombadillo]

I finally made it. I had been assigned this analysis, but real life called. (Stupid life.) You did a great job on short notice, Forkbeard! Thanks for that. In fact, I probably couldn't have thought of so many and such good discussion points. After a week away from the moot it took me months, apparently, to finally catch up and put my mind to these chapters.

Today I'll address things already touched upon that I feel are related. I might be back tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

The first time that I read it I thought: "Okay, I don't know where Gandalf has been the last few days but he clearly has gone bunkers somewhere between if he wants to ride with 25 men into Saruman''s fortified Isengard." Madness. Of course we knew that the Ents have marched to Isengard but we didn't know how they had fared. It was rather nice to let us find that one out along with the others when Merry and Pippin tell that tale.

It's really cool that you caught that. I didn't on my first reading, but as I reread these chapters it did make me think. I concluded pretty much what mooters have already said here: that he was just allowing the fellowship to enjoy its reunion. Kind of, "you can stay here guys... I'll move on. Theoden, want to come?" If anyone had noticed and pointed out to him what a ridiculous idea it was, I think then he would have explained. Since that did not happen, he had no reason to.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Probably from shock.

I think something like shock is pretty likely. I had a hard time trying to imagine myself as the characters in these few chapters because there is so much suspense and so much fluctuation in emotions taking place that it sort of blew my mind. Now imagine how Aragorn felt. Too relieved to speak! It's already been mentioned that Gandalf has a tendency to keep info to himself if he deems it uselss, and I think Aragorn has this same tendency. At this point, Aragorn probably felt that anything he had to say paled in comparison to the joy that he felt upon seeing Merry and Pippin alive. He probably wanted nothing else but to laugh in relief and listen to their stories. To talk was out of the question... I'm reminded of the bad pickup line "don't speak--you'll ruin the moment."

BTW, this quality in them (saying nothing unless it's helpful) is something I really admire and strive for. I think it's a main reason for Gandalf being my favorite character, and I always identify it as that gleam in the eyes of someone wisened by their life experience. In school, I'm actually famous or something for practicing this. I barely speak, unless to significantly contribute to a conversation or to help someone out in some way. It's given me a "knightly," "wise," and "noble" reputation, something very uncommon but IMO downright awesome.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

1) Why is Gandalf playing things so close to the chest? Why doesn't he explain, at least a little, or allay the concerns of Theoden?

Gandalf is one character who I always assume considers everything very carefully before deciding what to say about it. I imagine that he considered saying, "Actually, Theoden, I had your son buried, so the carrion never got to him," but decided that it would be pointless. When you're mourning, you want to be allowed to mourn, and not nitpicked about the particulars concerning your loved one's death. Gandalf must have been very atune to Theoden's feelings here and judged such a correction as possibly cheerful, because he wouldn't imagine his son as quite so gruesome, helpless, and lonely at death; but it wouldn't have made a significant diffence and it is questionable as to whether it would have helped at all or even harmed Theoden.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

20) Tolkien and "wise sayings": Proverbs occur throughout LoTR. IN this chapter there is, "One who can not cast away a treasure at need is in fetters." Are there others in these two chapters, and what is the importance of such proverbial lore in LoTR? Entertainment? Other?

Again, same virtue. Often, when I'm writing, and this is probably something that happens to everybody, a sentence will just hit me and make me think "Oh, now I have to work that in to this writing somewhere! That's perfect!" I think Tolkien is actually able to do this when it happens to him, and these perfectly worded proverbial summarizations jump out at the reader as concise statements of the author's morals. "Faithful heart may have forward tongue." See, that's exactly what he thought. No reason to elaborate on something so simple. Plus his viewpoint has more impact this way.

[Bombadillo]

Now on a separate note, regarding Tolkien's hints toward mechanization being the bringer of evil and destruction to our world. My memory is foggy on this. I know that JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis made a pact at one point to each write trilogies in which they sneak Christian themes to the masses who'd read them. CS Lewis went on to write the Space Trilogy, but halfway through I think he abandoned the idea of being subtle. Was LotR Tolkiens side of that deal?

Regardless, I think that his main intention all along was to make the evil of the machine a main theme here, but he never wanted to emphasize it. Instead, he'd trust some reader to pick up on it and wonder about it, and inevitably and ultimately come to the same conclusions that he did himeself a hundred years ago. Which IMO is the best and most enjoyable literary technique ever. It works on so many more people. To be obvious like Lewis turns a lot of people off right away, might go right over their heads, or may not address enough of their opposing points to be convicing; whereas Tolkien will get you thinking, about, say, how the gathering of armies foreshadow doom for the one gathering them, and then will lead you right into thinking of how that relates to our own world, and inevitably thinking about the histories of war and the direction of modern politics and whatnot till you realise, on your own, "you know what, I'm opposed to war." That was his genius, because a conclusion that a reader comes to that way is bound to become a deep, lasting opinion. I admit I'm rambling and I know that this is the reason any mooter appreciates Tolkien. I felt I had to verbalize it though. Isn't his influence just awesome? And what author could compare with that? I've been reading Heart of Darkness, and Joseph Conrad is subtle in the very same way, and I love it, but his writing just isn't half as good or multifacted.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

Now on a separate note, regarding Tolkien's hints toward mechanization being the bringer of evil and destruction to our world. My memory is foggy on this. I know that JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis made a pact at one point to each write trilogies in which they sneak Christian themes to the masses who'd read them. CS Lewis went on to write the Space Trilogy, but halfway through I think he abandoned the idea of being subtle. Was LotR Tolkiens side of that deal?

Going by equally foggy memory, I thought that Tolkien's side of the writing dare was supposed to be the tale of Numenor, the sunken continent, which he at that time didn't finish, but later merged with his ideas of Middle-earth. Parts of what he did write for that first draft are somewhere in HoME, if I'm not mistaken. I came across them somewhere at least.

I don't think he conciously did bring Christian themes in LoTR. Or lets say more accurately: If he did so, he was very subtle about it. The idea that I always had, was that LoTR wouldn't have been written if the readers (and publishers) didn't demand "more hobbits" from Tolkien. But since you can see the writing style change somwhat from A long-expected party onwards, from the Hobbitesque style to LoTR's own style, Tolkien evidently didn't just want to write about hobbits after a few chapters.

In a way I always see LoTR as a testament of Tolkien's mind, but not one that was written fully knowing. LoTR holds all the elements and ideals that were dear to Tolkien. LoTR, in my opinion, tells you more about the way Tolkien thought than merely being a show case for Christian themes he valued.

[Bombadillo]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

In a way I always see LoTR as a testament of Tolkien's mind, but not one that was written fully knowing. LoTR holds all the elements and ideals that were dear to Tolkien. LoTR, in my opinion, tells you more about the way Tolkien thought than merely being a show case for Christian themes he valued.

That was very well put, and I think you're right.

Yesterday I suddenly remembered some more of the details of that Lewis-Tolkien deal. The plan was that they would write trilogies that would complement each other, one about space, one about time, both with sneaky Christian undertones. Lewis obviously wrote the "Space Trilogy," and Tolkien barely began his time trilogy before deciding that he could get the same themes across in another, better way. He never went through with it. I found out about it through Wikipedia IIRC, and they were inspecific as to what else he had in mind. I suspect he wasn't sure himself, but the themes certainly did shine through in LotR.