Feanor's oath: I just don't get it ...

[Jon S.]

Assuming abandoning an oath to God (Illuvatar) is indeed a bad thing ("sin"), is it worse than serial murder?!

I just reread the Simarillion (as I do every year or two) and have to admit, I'm more perplexed at the behavior of Feanor and his sons than ever over their simarils oath.

At the end of the voyage of Earendil, Maglor finally actually comes close to at least postponing, if not abandoning the oath, claiming more or less, (1) Let's submit to the Valar, maybe afterwards they'll simply return the jewels to us and we'll come into our own in peace, and (2) If Manwe and Varda personally disown an oath we made naming them as witnesses, isn't it then void?

Only to have Maedrhos (I really don't like him!) reply, "But how shall our voices reach to Illuvatar beyond the Circles of the World? And to Illuvatar we swore in our madness, and called the Everlasting Darkness upon us, if we kept not our word."

Maglor then replies with a variant of my opening observation: "If none can release us, then indeed the Everlasting Darkness shall be our lot, whether we keep our oath or break it; but less evil shall we do in the breaking."

But then he submits to Maedrhos will and does the greater evil anyway, knowingly!

Tokien, of course, was a serious Catholic. I don't know much about how Catholics deal with this type of issue but in my own tradition, the problem - theologically and practically - of oaths to God that cannot or should not be kept was easily addressed hundreds if not thousands of years ago by empowering a religious court to grant the people's petition to forego their ill-advised oaths via a prayer called Kol Nidre. This prayer, which applies only to oaths between an individual and God (not to another person - look it up in Wikipedia if more info. on it would be helpful), was designed specifically to address the same basic problem as faced by Feanor and his sons as a result of their own rash, ill-advised oath.

This outcome seems so simple and practical that it leads me to ask: why no Middle Earth equivalent? The Valar are essentially Illuvatar's representatives on Earth, aren't they. In another thread of mine on this forum, I comment on how Manwe reported looking inward to learn the will of Illuvatar which he then shared and acted on.

Feanor's oath was so darn stupid and evil. Why couldn't Manwe have checked in with Illuvatar on that one, too?

[Peter_20]

Actually, the Oath of Fëanor was the very reason the Noldor journeyed back to Middle-earth, and this journey was in turn the reason the Noldor did great deeds in those parts of the world.

It's just like the Music of the Ainur states from the start:
evil deeds will result in heroic deeds later on.
So the Oath basically was a good thing in the end.

[Landroval]

Actually, the Oath of Fëanor was the very reason the Noldor journeyed back to Middle-earth, and this journey was in turn the reason the Noldor did great deeds in those parts of the world.

I disagree; most of the elves returned to Middle Earth due to the kinship between the houses. Some of them, like Galadriel, simply wanted lands of their own.

Originally Posted by Of the flight of the noldor, Silmarillion

They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Iluvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwe they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.

Calling the darkness? Pursuing the rulers of the world with vengeance? From the very start, this was not committed to Iluvatar, but to evil. Considering its nature, in Ea maybe only Melkor could have freed them from the oath .

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Peter_20

Actually, the Oath of Fëanor was the very reason the Noldor journeyed back to Middle-earth, and this journey was in turn the reason the Noldor did great deeds in those parts of the world.

It's just like the Music of the Ainur states from the start:
evil deeds will result in heroic deeds later on.
So the Oath basically was a good thing in the end.

I agree. Fëanor was the catalyst for all that followed. Without him Middle Earth would still be the realm of Melkor. And I think that it was the death of his father that was the true motivation behind his oath, more than it was the Silmarils.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Without him Middle Earth would still be the realm of Melkor.

I don't think that it would be worse than living in a quiet stagnant pool, without any progress, where the only things you can do is to sing songs and tell the tales about how good Valar are. Where the time slowed down to non existence, and anything you want to do should be approved by the higher authorities.

It's fortunate for ME dwellers that, thanks to Melkor, the Grand Project of Valar to make a gilded cage out of ME, the same, as they did to Vanyar in Aman, did not materialise .

Actually, I understand Feanor's intentions to go against an overbearing will of demi-gods.

[The Gaffer]

* agrees with the above, even the ones that disagree *

In Tolkien's milieu, words, and oaths have far more power than they do in ours.
- think of Gollum being afraid to cheat at the riddling game
- Elrond's advice re: oaths
- The Dead (as in Paths of)
- The World itself was formed from music (presumably including lyrics of some sort )

Whether this power derives from Iluvatar or what, there is obviously something very literal about how their oaths translated into real life.

Think also of its power to "out" even those who tried to escape it; Galadrield, who did not even take the oath, was bound into its fate.

Dunno about this canonical court thing, but clearly it doesn't apply here.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

In Tolkien's milieu, words, and oaths have far more power than they do in ours.

Dunno about this canonical court thing, but clearly it doesn't apply here.

In today's society where when you're in the government, are convicted of perjury, and look immediately for your pardon - yes. In the Biblical and other prior days - no, oaths were in many cultures taken as seriously as in ME.

On the latter point, obviously it doesn't apply in ME but my question is why (or why not)?

Here's the logic model that could, at least theoretically, apply to ME:

1. Oaths to Illuvatar (God) are binding.
2. God won't speak directly to His creations.
3. God will, however, let His will be known, at least occasionally, to his representatives.
4. The Valar are Illuvatar's ME reps.
5. Manwe, in particular, by going inward, can at least occasionally learn the will of Illuvatar.
6. Upon request, Manwe looks inward and ascertains that the Illuvatar is not particularly interested in Feanor and his sons keeping the particular oath.

But even if this is deemed not logical or ME-internally consistent, I would still repeat this alternative logic:

IF fulfilling an oath to God (Illuvatar)
has/is/will produce worse evil than abandoning it
THEN the ethical response is to abandon it
and by so doing
do the right thing overall.

Seems to me Maglor, in fact, "got" this. He was just too weak AKA insufficiently ethical to "act" on it.

[Peter_20]

By the way, Jon S., how can you NOT like Maedhros?
He's a very caring guy, the only one of the brothers who actually cares for other people and shows love for them.

*he felt sad for the burning of the ships at Losgar
*because of this, he waived his claim to kingship, and gave it to Fingolfin
*he formed the Union of Maedhros
*he sought for the sons of Dior, Eluréd and ElurÃ*n
*he and Maglor took care of Elrond and Elros

So, how could anyone dislike him?
He had a big heart, and he clearly was the most likeable of the brothers.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

In today's society where when you're in the government, are convicted of perjury, and look immediately for your pardon - yes. In the Biblical and other prior days - no, oaths were in many cultures taken as seriously as in ME.

I think you missed my point, which is about how the world works, not about human cultures and values.

Take the example of the Oathbreakers from the Paths of the Dead. How did they end up cursed for three millennia? How did Aragorn summon them to serve him?

Somehow I don't think that sort of thing went on in pre-Biblical times, or any other.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I agree. Fëanor was the catalyst for all that followed. Without him Middle Earth would still be the realm of Melkor. And I think that it was the death of his father that was the true motivation behind his oath, more than it was the Silmarils.

Absolutely, and it was the genius and fire and beauty & originality and spark and flawed creativity and tortured vigour of Feanor's mind and heart and will which brought about the monumental changes in middle-earth history that we all know of as the Third Age. There'd be no story without Feanor. There'd be no nothing without this figure, quite frankly, as far as Lord Of The Rings stories go.

Why did Tolkien create Feanor? He was making a beautiful, genius artistic point, with the creation and implementaion of Feanor into his stories. Feanor was not a "Lucifer," he was not "evil," he was not even a fraction as bad or bad-ass as Sauron ever was, but he was real, accessible, human more than Elvish with his abilities both to make terrible, proud decisions and crushing, Middle-Earth shattering mistakes, his extremely rare ability to lead on such a massive scale as to have all sorts of elves following him into uncertainty and possible ostracision from Eru, with devoted fervor, even after the terrible burning of the ships and all the other fantastically far-fetched f*cked up decisions Feanor made as a leader.

About Feanor's Oath - so, you just "don't get it?" Well, try to think about it a little, try to put yourself even slightly into the mind and shoes of this great mythological leader; he was far greater a leader than Attila the Hun, or Napolean, or Genghis Khan or George Washington or Joan of Arc or Lucifer or Jesus or Puff the Magic Dragon, all combined!!!

Feanor was all that, and a bag 'o chips. He'd have freaked out Jesus, made Genghis & Attila very nervous, caused Joan to go into a paranoid trance, madce Napolean insanely jealous, and prompted George Washington to say f*ck it, can't compete, and light up a spliff.

Lucifer & Jesus'd just stick around and squabble over the publicity rights, arguing about who deserves what recognition for what portrayal of whose true character, yada yada blah blah. They'd be still locked up in litigation about that sh*t right now; cases like that last for centuries, don't they. Anyway, we all know how much intense sibling rivalry has always gone down between THOSE two, Lucifer & Jesus, oh, fuggetaboutit.

[The Gaffer]

Outstanding post, Lotsy! Especially

Feanor was all that, and a bag 'o chips.

xx

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

About Feanor's Oath - so, you just "don't get it?" Well, try to think about it a little, try to put yourself even slightly into the mind and shoes of this great mythological leader; he was far greater a leader than Attila the Hun, or Napolean, or Genghis Khan or George Washington or Joan of Arc or Lucifer or Jesus or Puff the Magic Dragon, all combined!!!

While Fëanor did have a truckload of skills, I wouldn't quite put leadership among it. Oh, he sure knew how to inspire and convince people, he oozed charisma, no doubt. In leadership he was IMO overly rash and hasty, which eventually led to his death and the death of many. He wanted glory, whatever the cost. His last action was to remind his sons about that ill-conceived vow, knowing fully well his people could not succeed. A good leader combines passion and wisdom, Fëanor let passions rule him instead.

[Landroval]

he was far greater a leader than Attila the Hun, or Napolean, or Genghis Khan or George Washington or Joan of Arc or Lucifer or Jesus or Puff the Magic Dragon, all combined!!!

What sort of a leader is he, if he leaves behind the greater part of his host? And then burns the ship that might bring them? Forcing them to cross the Helcaraxxe at great cost of lives? The text is very clear about his madness:

Originally Posted by Of the return of the noldor, Silmarillion

Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared: but even had he known it would not have deterred him, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath

He may display ofermode, "overmastering pride", but that doesn't make him a great leader, quite the contrary. Atilla, Napoleon, Genghis Han or Washington would have to fear Feanor if they were fighting on the same side. If Feanour would be fighting against them, he would be their best asset.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

A good leader combines passion and wisdom, Fëanor let passions rule him instead.

Exactly. Passions are a good slave but a terrible master.

And starting the fires that killed your own sons (as JRRT "hints" happened at the ships) because they didn't buy into your own personal agenda ... wow...

Reading The Shibboleth of Feanor in HoME 12 (The Peoples of Middle-Earth) gave me more compassion for the guy, though. I like that he's a complex character, but I think he made a progression of self-centered, self-serving choices at terrible cost to others, and his heart grew harder each time.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

About Feanor's Oath - so, you just "don't get it?" Well, try to think about it a little, try to put yourself even slightly into the mind and shoes of this great mythological leader; he was far greater a leader than Attila the Hun, or Napolean, or Genghis Khan or George Washington or Joan of Arc or Lucifer or Jesus or Puff the Magic Dragon, all combined!!!

Had I begun this post with, "So you don't get my not getting it? Well, try to read a little," that would not have made my points any more persuasive. Your post is both rude and misleading. Rude because who the _ _ _ _ are you to tell me to "try to think a little." Misleading because some of Feanors' descendents themselves expressed their doubts and I was discussing them, too.

It's not only a ME phenomenom. The real world is full of people who put their self-perceived "principles" and "leadership" above their ethics. People who will literally murder a human being for a jewel or an oath.

That, yes, I "get."