Eru/Fate - Page 9

Butterbeer · 03-19-2007, 08:07 PM

When did determinism thus become self-fulfilling?

..and if so how?

What point the music if it were a dead deterministic thing?

Surely the whole point about the music of creation and evolution and the gift of free will -

- was that it had the life of creating it's own music within an orchestral direction but not beholden to any conductor?

Else it is in no way music or in any sense we here understand, creative?

Landroval · 03-20-2007, 05:36 AM

I don't see determinism in the Silmarillion. Tolkien states that free will is guaranteed by Eru, even for those who apparently oppose him. Eru himself introduces in every age new things which do not appear in the music (Ainulindale); the Children of Eru themselves are as free as they could get; In Quendi and Eldar, Nienna states that the fea of each of the Eruhini is as strong as Mandos is (who she holds to be the strongest in Arda), and no power can move it if it will not.

Butterbeer · 03-21-2007, 06:52 PM

it's potentially littered with it for those that wish to see it that way, i guess...

But i agree with your purist view Landroval, in so far as as it is not deterministic, not taken in a modern day zealot like way.

But then, the question begs to be answered - how 'hand-on' is that 'guarantee'?

Best, BB

Landroval · 03-22-2007, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

how 'hand-on' is that 'guarantee'?

I think that the most intrusive way Eru would act is sending 'messages':

Quote:

Originally Posted by Author's Note #3 to the Osanwe-kenta

No mind can, however, be closed against Eru, either against His inspection or against His message. The latter it may not heed, but it cannot say it did not receive it.

That being said, after Eru sends his message, and the person receives it, he or she may still act away. As in a chess game, Eru may respond with a move of his own, but free will still exists, and mere communication does not hinder it.

Quote:

i agree with your purist view

You surely meant this adjective in a laudative manner

Jon S. · 03-23-2007, 09:14 PM

Most of us are have probably at least heard of the word "koan," defined in Wikipedia as:

>> a story, dialogue, question, or statement in the history and lore of Chan (Zen) Buddhism, generally containing aspects that are inaccessible to rational understanding, yet that may be accessible to intuition. A famous kōan is, "Two hands clap and there is a sound; what is the sound of one hand?"

We usually think of koans as Eastern but they are common in Western science and philosopy, too, often in the form of seemingly unreconcilable dichotomies the depend on the point of view of the observer. An example of the former: light is both a wave and a particle (quantum mechanics). An example of the latter: all is foreseen yet free will is given (Talmud).

The latter is pretty much spot on to aspects of this discussion: ME may be determined and free will is given.

03-21-2007, 06:52 PM	#163
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	it's potentially littered with it for those that wish to see it that way, i guess... But i agree with your purist view Landroval, in so far as as it is not deterministic, not taken in a modern day zealot like way. But then, the question begs to be answered - how 'hand-on' is that 'guarantee'? Best, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 03-21-2007 at 06:54 PM.

03-19-2007, 08:07 PM	#161
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	When did determinism thus become self-fulfilling? ..and if so how? What point the music if it were a dead deterministic thing? Surely the whole point about the music of creation and evolution and the gift of free will - - was that it had the life of creating it's own music within an orchestral direction but not beholden to any conductor? Else it is in no way music or in any sense we here understand, creative?

03-20-2007, 05:36 AM	#162
Landroval Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 421	I don't see determinism in the Silmarillion. Tolkien states that free will is guaranteed by Eru, even for those who apparently oppose him. Eru himself introduces in every age new things which do not appear in the music (Ainulindale); the Children of Eru themselves are as free as they could get; In Quendi and Eldar, Nienna states that the fea of each of the Eruhini is as strong as Mandos is (who she holds to be the strongest in Arda), and no power can move it if it will not.

03-23-2007, 09:14 PM	#165
Jon S. Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 455	Most of us are have probably at least heard of the word "koan," defined in Wikipedia as: >> a story, dialogue, question, or statement in the history and lore of Chan (Zen) Buddhism, generally containing aspects that are inaccessible to rational understanding, yet that may be accessible to intuition. A famous kōan is, "Two hands clap and there is a sound; what is the sound of one hand?" We usually think of koans as Eastern but they are common in Western science and philosopy, too, often in the form of seemingly unreconcilable dichotomies the depend on the point of view of the observer. An example of the former: light is both a wave and a particle (quantum mechanics). An example of the latter: all is foreseen yet free will is given (Talmud). The latter is pretty much spot on to aspects of this discussion: ME may be determined and free will is given.