Elwë's and Olwë's Indisposition

[Keith K]

The Teleri would not help the Noldor because ultimately their leaders were as elitist and racist as were those of the Noldor.

[Maedhros]

The Teleri would not help the Noldor because ultimately their leaders were as elitist and racist as were those of the Noldor.

Racist, in what way were the Ñoldor and the Teleri racist?

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Maedhros
[B]Racist, in what way were the Ñoldor and the Teleri racist? [/B


Okay, they aren't racist.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Keith K
The Teleri would not help the Noldor because ultimately their leaders were as elitist and racist as were those of the Noldor.

Well, I don't think the Teleri were racist toward the Noldor, or the Noldor toward them. There may have been instances of racism in Beleriand between the Eldar and Men at times, and there were individual instances of racism. I think Thingol was a good example of this in his ill feelings toward the arrival of the Noldor, and his feelings toward Beren in particular.

[Keith K]

I agree with you Sister Golden Hair. There are other examples too. For instance Mim's people were subjected to racist treatment by the Teleri. In my original post however, I was thinking rascism between Elves. I looked for some examples to back up that charge but couldn't really put my finger on a concrete occurance. I had thought that perhaps there was racism involved in the way the Noldor viewed the Dark Elves, especially Eol, but on further study I have decided to withdraw the racism accusation.

[Bard]

Indeed there was racism, because that`s a common thing amongst people of many different origins. First there was a form of racism between the Sindar and the North-Elves whom were for a great deal of Avari orrigin. Then the Nandor came into Beleriand, they assimilated quite well I`d gues cause they were seen as long lost relatives of the Sindar. Next there were found the Naugrim which the Elfen couldn`t define as being a different race of Illuvater but rather as a sort of Orcs. The example of the pitty Dwarves of Amon-Rudh and Nargothrond would be evindence of this racistic actions of the Elves (coming forth out of unknowing). Then the Noldor came, which brought a great number of people into Beleriand. The Sindar (particilarly Thingol) feld threated by them. The grief between the old people of Beleriand and the new caused a lot of unwill and hatred between eachother. Next group to arive in Beleriand were the Edain, the three houses and though the Noldor took them as there loyal subjects and friends into there lands the other Elves and Dwarves didn`t feel like welcoming them and would rather see them leave than come. Finaly there came out of the east the peoples of Bor and Ulfast, we all know how this story ended.
Some described racist forms one could see in the discussion Celegorm and Curufin had with Eol and Eol`s thoughts about the Noldor. Also it`s described in Thingol`s unwill to befriend the Noldor, save Finarfin`s children and his will not to let anybody of a different race folk into Doriath.

[Maedhros]

Then the Noldor came, which brought a great number of people into Beleriand. The Sindar (particilarly Thingol) feld threated by them. The grief between the old people of Beleriand and the new caused a lot of unwill and hatred between eachother.

Yes, but is that racism. I mean don't they have the same color of skin?
BTW, how would someone here define racism.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Yes, but is that racism. I mean don't they have the same color of skin?
BTW, how would someone here define racism.

Maybe in this case when comparing the Elves, discrimination would be a better word. They were all Elves and physically much the same, but they were of different cultures in ways. I think Thingol had claimed this huge domain for himself and when the Noldor came from the West and wanted to settle there, he was of the mind that they could not and he tried to tell them where they could and could not live. Racism would be an appropiate word to use for Thingols treatment of Beren and his early views of Men, and those feeling from Thingol seemed to exist from Beren being mortal more than anything else.

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Yes, but is that racism. I mean don't they have the same color of skin?
BTW, how would someone here define racism.

Discrimination and xenophobia may well have existed, from both sides. But I think it is not the relevant issue. The relevant issue (in my opinion) was that they were uninvited guests in Beleriand. Guests that took possession of part of the owner’s house.

Trully what separated them was not so much a racial thing but a cultural one. The Noldor had a higher culture than the Sindar. Their sense of superiority was derived from that. Remember that they had no such attitude against the other Aman elves.

As for the attitude of the Sindar in relation to the Noldor, they had reasons to feel treatened. What happened was that a group of foreigners went into the country of the Sindar, took possession of part of it claiming it to be theirs, without more then lip service to the ruler of the original population. They may have come to aid them, but they are certainly not respecting the original population wishes.

Think of what would happen if it occurred between modern nations.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Thingol claiming to be "Lord of Beleriand" doesn't make it so. He had no legitimate claim beyond Doriath. IMO.

[Keith K]

The Noldor had a higher culture than the Sindar. Their sense of superiority was derived from that.


Elvellon has hit on the elitism of the Elves here. Each group seemed to feel that their way was the best, and therefore only way to organize themselves. This attitude prevented them from acting in concert with each other against a common foe. Thingol was willing to let the Noldor settle in areas of Beleriand out of his direct control, and it didn't bother him that they were fighting against Morgoth, but ultimately he didn't want to interact with them. Was this attitude xenaphobia? I don't think so. I do think that he thought his own way of life was in danger of being corrupted by anything new. He is the ultimate conservative politically speaking. In any event, it seems the Noldor believed that they had the deeper understanding and a "higher culture" than any Sindar or other Elvish civilization in all of Ea. Elitist snobs the lot of them!

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Thingol claiming to be "Lord of Beleriand" doesn't make it so. He had no legitimate claim beyond Doriath. IMO.

But Thingol’s folk did live outside of Doriath, and acknowledged his authority. There were Sindar in Hithlum, Nevrast, etc. So his authority did extended beyond the hearth of his kingdom. Those territories were at risk, but they were still part of the dwelling of the Sindar.

[adanedhel]

Originally posted by Elvellon
But Thingol’s folk did live outside of Doriath, and acknowledged his authority. There were Sindar in Hithlum, Nevrast, etc. So his authority did extended beyond the hearth of his kingdom. Those territories were at risk, but they were still part of the dwelling of the Sindar.

True, his authority extended beyond Doriath perhaps, but not necessarily the power to hold it as his own.

Thingol said to Angrod: "In Hithlum the Noldor have leave to dwell, and in the highlands of Dorthonion, and in the lands east of Doriath that are empty and wild; but elsewhere there are many of my people, and I would not have them restrained of their freedom, still less ousted from their homes. Beware therefore how you princes of the West bear yourselves; for I am the Lord of Beleriand, and all who seek to dwell there shall hear my word....."

Maedhros laughed when he heard this and said: "A king is he that can hold his own.....Thingol does but grant us lands where his power does not run."

[markedel]

Of course the problem with analysing such events is that the Doom of Mandos hangs over Beleriand like a shadow-no matter how the elves and their allies would try they just couldn't win. God was against them. Compare this to Lord of the Rings where Gandalf alludes to oblique divine aid that helped ensure victory.