Where the Teleri Ships Irreplaceable?

[Ithildin55]

Suilad, Elanor, mellon nÃ*n.
Interesting discussion here and some good points brought out IMO. I had not previously noticed that about Fëanor ruthlessly taking and then destroying the creations of the Teleri while selfishly denying the benefit of his creations to all of Arda.

I think the concept of the ships being one-of-a-kind creations is a good one too. In our world, there were lots of tall ships, but only one Cutty Sark, only one Flying Cloud, etc. A painter could paint a masterpiece, and if it were destroyed, he could still paint more pictures, but that particular masterpiece would be gone forever, it could not be duplicated. I think the Teleri could and did build more ships, but they could not duplicate the original ones as each one was unique.

Ithildin

[Elanor Gamgee]

Suilad Ithildin,
Great to meet you here!
(A-hem, I think I ought to expand my Sindarin vocabulary... somewhat )
IMHO you are raising very interesting points about irreplaceable creations. Indeed, what holds more value - life of creator or the irreplaceable things created? Feanor obviously valued Teleri far below their ships...

[Maedhros]

It is interesting to compare, how Fëanor himself behaves in a similar situation. Although the Teleri make their feelings about the ships quite clear, Fëanor not only insists, he kills his fellow-Elves to seize the result of their creative process! He, if anyone, ought to have known how a creator feels about the results of his work. I believe that Fëanor's actions, by contrast, were a wicked act of ultimate selfishness.

The Teleri are not without their faults. They deny the Ñoldor help by lending or using their ships as a Ferry system to carry them to ME. It was the Ñoldor who helped them when they came to Valinor to built their houses.
When you think about the fact that Elves can be reborn, then the slaying of elves is not that bad because they can actually return to Arda (althought I gather that the experience is not pleasing). I often wondered about the Teleri in Valinor. They had made their ships, they live a life of peace, they were not going to do anything else in their lives.
The cool thing about Fëanor is that no matter if it was an elf, maiar or Vala, he was willing to do anything to avenge his father and regain his Silmarils.

No wonder that he was permanently denied reembodiment by Ilúvatar himself.

Where is that written? I thought that Fëanor, according to the second Prophecy of Mandos was going to return and open his Silmarils for Yavanna (Palúrien) to remake the trees in Arda Healed.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Maedhros
The Teleri are not without their faults. They deny the Ñoldor help by lending or using their ships as a Ferry system to carry them to ME.

It seems to me that discussing this belongs in another thread- as a matter of a fact, I think a thread was made to discuss that subject.

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
Feanor obviously valued Teleri far below their ships...

I think he didn't. He was, as Ithildin pointed out, extremely selfish and enamored of his own work. His arrogance is absolutely appalling (Even if it does make him more interesting ). His character has a firm resolve about it, as you say, Maehdros, but I think it's completely logical that Ilúvatar would punish him for his behavior.

Feanor wanted the ships for transport, to achieve his own ends. He was willing to destroy anything that impeded his will from being done on this issue, and because of that he destroyed the Teleri. He didn't care for either the Teleri or their ships, as is evidenced by the fact that he burned them after they reached land .

[Kirinki54]

I think the answer to the question is actually contained in the opening post (although several posters have already expanded on it in constructive ways): the Teleri refers to "the work of our hearts".
Like Elven love between man and woman, it was never substituted.
The ships were probably also unique creations, not only work of heart but also work of art.
The ships were also so closely related to their particular Teleri brand of Elvishness that they identified strongly with them.
I would hesitate to assume the ships were animated, but I do think they took on a sort of personality to their masters and that they in return loved them. Hence the use of the term "rape".

BTW hello Elanor Gamgee and Ithildin55 from Kirinki54!

[Elanor Gamgee]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
It seems to me that discussing this belongs in another thread- as a matter of a fact, I think a thread was made to discuss that subject.

This is true. I apologise for drifting off-topic and maybe repeating things already said by another posters; still, I believe I owe Maedhros an answer. I shall try to be brief.

Originally posted by Maedhros
The Teleri are not without their faults. They deny the Ñoldor help by lending or using their ships as a Ferry system to carry them to ME. It was the Ñoldor who helped them when they came to Valinor to built their houses.
When you think about the fact that Elves can be reborn, then the slaying of elves is not that bad because they can actually return to Arda (althought I gather that the experience is not pleasing). I often wondered about the Teleri in Valinor. They had made their ships, they live a life of peace, they were not going to do anything else in their lives.
The cool thing about Fëanor is that no matter if it was an elf, maiar or Vala, he was willing to do anything to avenge his father and regain his Silmarils.

The point I tried to make was that Teleri were under no obligation to aid Feanor. As you yourself and Lief Erikson point out, Feanor's desire to come to Middle-earth was caused by entirely personal reasons. Whether to help him in that or not was up to Teleri to decide. Since they had not been cozened by Morgoth, and still kept reverence to the Valar, they denied the ships. Again, these were their creations and their right.
What I see as Feanor's biggest fault is the fact that he coersed the Teleri, denying their rights and their free will. The fact that Elves are immortal does not matter, IMHO. Feanor was himself immortal; however, he had refused to surrender the Silmarils under this very pretext - it would have caused his death. However, he killed the Teleri without remorse, in order to achieve his personal objectives. This is what I call selfish.
BTW, Tolkien considered coersion of an incarnate's free will the biggest "sin" that could be committed, and the ultimate cause of Morgoth's and Sauron's fall.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Where is that written? I thought that Fëanor, according to the second Prophecy of Mandos was going to return and open his Silmarils for Yavanna (Palúrien) to remake the trees in Arda Healed.

It depends upon what version of the Quenta Silmarillion you prefer. From Christopher's notes to The Later Quenta Silmarillion:

Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos. [This was JRRT's text. Christopher's comment follows - E.G.]
The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V.333) had now therefore definitely disappeared.

Morgoth's Ring, HoME X (1993), The Later Quenta Silmarillion, p. 203-204.
Later on, in Athrabeth Finrod ah Adreth Tolkien developed his ideas. As he wrote in Note 7 to Athrabeth:

It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin; [19] it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition.

Morgoth's Ring, HoME X (1993), Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, p. 342
Further clarification is given in editorial note 19 to the same Athrabeth:

"The myth that appeares at the end of the Silmarillion": in so far as the reference is to any actual written text, this is the conclusion of QS (V.333, §§31-2), the Prophecy of Mandos.

Ibid., p. 359
As for the Arda Healed, in Athrabeth Tolkien seemed to soften his position a bit. He declared it (through Finrod) as a possibility; at least, Finrod's good hope was resting in such an end.

Now - to Feanor's re-embodiment.
Maybe I was too hasty in having Iluvatar to condemn him. This is how the text runs:

Their [the Elves - E.G.] death - by any injury to their bodies so severe that it could not be healed - and the disembodiment of their spirits was an "unnatural" and grievous matter. It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this "restoration" could be delayed [8] by Manwe, if the fea while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.

The Peoples of Middle-earth, HoME XII (1996), Last Writings, p. 381.
Further, Editorial Note [8] to this text:

Or in gravest cases (such as that of Feanor) withheld and referred to the One.

Ibid., p.389