Why Books are Better than Drugs - Page 2

emplynx · 01-26-2002, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mirrille
Umm...I think there are some of the more...shall we say...restrictive countries where you might still want to be careful about what reading material you bring in. Although anyone who can conceal print materials that way I would be very impressed with.

No doubt Bibles are stopped into many countries... I guess you could put a small book in a... Oh never mind.

Sakata · 01-27-2002, 09:14 PM

You bet! my mom smuggled bibles behind the iron curtain when she was younger. Hey, if you are looking for a good book, pick up the bible, a life time of reading it and it will still amaze you!

emplynx · 01-27-2002, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakata
Hey, if you are looking for a good book, pick up the bible, a life time of reading it and it will still amaze you!

No doubt.

Starr Polish · 01-27-2002, 10:24 PM

Ah yes. I"m trying to get all the way through it for the first tiem by the end of this year. Quite a 'chore'. I like to read it, but it is a bit...confusing at times. ::shrug:: May be because I'm having some conflicts with youth groups, BUT...this is a thread about why books are better than drugs.

The 'high' you get from books can last a life time.

mirrille · 01-27-2002, 10:59 PM

That depends. I embarked on a similar project around Grade 8. Decided the most logical thing would be to start at the beginning of the Bible and work my way toward the end. At the time it made sense to do it that way because I was going to a Catholic school and officially a baptised Catholic and I figured the central holy book might be a proper thing to read. Let's just say...I never got past the Pentateuch. I decided that I had some serious issues with the way this god was going about some things. Seemed like there was an awful lot of gratuitous smiting going on and maybe my sensitive innocent 13 year old mind couldn't deal with the perceived injustice.

And that's how 9 years of Catholic education went completely to waste.
At the time I was probably having some doubts about my faith to begin with, so maybe I was more vulnerable to that. I had to read some more of it for an English class much later. There's some good stuff in there,...but...not enough to bring me back.

Still, people who believe enough and are brave enough to sneak those things around are pretty amazing.
Just goes to show how powerful books are. Empires fear them because they encourage THINKING.

Starr Polish · 01-27-2002, 11:26 PM

What the heck is the Pentateuch?

I don't agree with a lot of Catholic beliefs, I'm a Protestant (Methodist, to be exact), and I've stumbled upon a few of those things, but it actually hasn't pulled me away from God at all. In fact, it made me closer. I'm also not one of those 'brainwashed' Christians. That's why I'm having problems with my youth group. ANYWAY...I'd talk about it more, but 1) this isn't the thread for it adn 2) i'm really tired.

FrodoFriend · 01-28-2002, 01:30 AM

Hmmm, can't say I want to read any more of the Bible than I already have, but it's definitely better than drugs.

noldo · 01-28-2002, 07:11 AM

OMG, tis' going to be another bible conversation?

Sakata · 01-28-2002, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by noldo
OMG, tis' going to be another bible conversation?

I hope so!
I can think of nothing more cruel to do to people you love than to not share the word of god with them. I am a very shy person and so this is hard for me to do in person, so I use the net as my way to witness. If you believe in something with all your mind, heart, and soal, how can you not tell everyone you meet "I am high on the love of Jesus, and I want to share it with you!" I live with my lord helping me and guiding me in every aspect of my life, and I would like nothing more than to have my fellow Tolkien fanatics have the same. I want to say that I love you all and your all beautiful because you where made in the image of the creator of the universe!
And also who cares if this turns into "another bible conversation" we are in General messages so we can turn it into anything we want really.

Sakata · 01-29-2002, 06:58 PM

Um, well it cant be a disscution unless someone else posts something!

Aragorn · 01-29-2002, 07:22 PM

I'm obviously not gonna read the bible because I don't believe in god. Never have, never will. It's all a load of bull to me.

CardenIAntauraNauco · 01-29-2002, 07:39 PM

My biggest problem with atheism is this...

Where did everything begin...where did matter and energy come from... It can't have just existed forever because infinity is a completely theoretical number. I could count to 1 trillion and I would be no closer to infinity than I was at 1. Now if today is 0 then when the earth began would be -infinity, Not only would you not know where to end you wouldn't have a place to begin. The creationist theory is that god existed outside of time and created time. There is as I see it no reasonable explanation outside of something supernatural. Do you, Aragorn, have an explanation?

Aragorn · 01-29-2002, 08:23 PM

No, none of us do, yet we strive to know everyting, so therefore we create some completely bull explanation that there's some all powerful being that could kill anyone off with the wave of his hand. I find it completely bogus. I believe in reincarnation and evolution. My point is nobody fricken knows what the hell happened to make us be so us, having to have a logical answer to EVERYTHING create some myth that just got popular. Everyone has a different type of theory on gods. People in Afganistan believe in Islam, the ancient Greeks believed in many gods, the Romans the same, about every single civilization has a different theory on gods and how the world came to be. Out of all the past theories and all the ones to come, why do you think yours is real? Why do you think every other theory about many gods, or Islam, is utter bull and yours is correct? You have no fricken idea if your right or not! And you'll find out when you die, but you can't tell anyone, so it doesn't matter. None of this even matters. In the end your just going to live your life, irrelevent in the population, irrelevent in the world, irrelevent in the universe, it doesn't matter, you can't change ****, and in the end. It just doesn't matter what you believe in. Now I'm done discussing religion so don't even try to debate this further with me.

CardenIAntauraNauco · 01-29-2002, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Now I'm done discussing religion so don't even try to debate this further with me.

No... I have learned not to discuss things with people who
would die before they believe something else. However I understand that your closed to discussion.

But may I point out as an argument to others who agree with Aragorn. True we cannot know how the universe began but we can reason with the logical capabilities we have it is an absolute impossibility for there notto be anything outside of time. Where did the earth come from?...the big bang? where did it come form?...A condensed ball of matter?..where... Eventually there has to be something in which matter and energy originated. It is as I am sure you can see a logical impossibility for it to have existed forever in the framework of time. That would be an infinite number of years ago and infinite is an impossible number to reach its not a natural number. The only way for something to have existed for infinity is for that entity to be not-natural,above natural,yes..super-natural.

mirrille · 01-29-2002, 08:56 PM

Who was it that said "You (the god-believer) and I (the atheist) are actually very alike. You just believe in one more god than I do. Once you understand why you reject all the other possible gods, then you will understand why I reject yours."?
I read that as a famous quote from somewhere and thought it was neat, but I can't remember who it was. I'm not sure I got the exact wording right.

Anyways, pseudodebates about this are very tiresome. It's already obvious that we are approaching the problem from very different origins/mindsets. There is never a conclusion. For example, Carden is approaching this from the point of view that having supernatural beings is the superior system because there are things in the world that (currently) have no explanation. Aragorn is approaching this from the point of view that inventing supernatural beings to explain things is so common, so he finds no validity in this method.
Neither side ever sees eye to eye because they are practically speaking about different problems. It becomes a match to establish which approach is better, but of course in real life, all aproaches have their uses. The thought system and priorities are too different. It's not even a real debate.
Me? I'll provisionally believe anything that makes sense to me. But I'll be waiting for the data.

CardenIAntauraNauco · 01-29-2002, 09:00 PM

I'm not arguing for my god..currently I'm arguing for A god.

mirrille · 01-29-2002, 09:09 PM

Supernatural all depends on what you define as being natural.

I don't even want to get into that one right now. As far as I'm concerned, if it happened, it's natural (a part of reality, as it were). Therefore, nothing in the world is supernatural. There are just things that we can't explain (yet!

) Maybe gods are natural. I haven't seen one yet, but maybe I didn't know if I saw one.)

But you can see the problems with this kind of semantics? There are too many ways to define nature.

Anyways. Let's talk about books! Sure, there are religious books. There are tons of different ones. They're fun. They lend meaning to some peoples' lives. They are also important historical documents that give us insight into how a society thinks (if there is such a thing as a collective mind.) Books written ABOUT religious books are also like that.

The kind of reading material you find at the bestseller rack in your local bookstore will also give you a glimpse of that.

Umm...books are cool because when the person who wrote them is gone, the words live on!

Wayfarer · 01-29-2002, 09:47 PM

Aragorn · 01-29-2002, 09:49 PM

Aye, what he said. Why is this so important to everyone? We all have our different beliefs, obviously we're not going to change each others minds, so let's just drop it.

emplynx · 01-29-2002, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn
I'm obviously not gonna read the bible because I don't believe in god. Never have, never will. It's all a load of bull to me.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I can make you believe a God, but I hope you change you mind one day.

01-27-2002, 09:14 PM	#22
Sakata Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Lothlorien Posts: 216	You bet! my mom smuggled bibles behind the iron curtain when she was younger. Hey, if you are looking for a good book, pick up the bible, a life time of reading it and it will still amaze you! __________________ "When evil people come to destroy me, when my enemies and foes attack me, they will stumble and fall. Though a mighty army surrounds me, my heart will know no fear." -Psalms 27:2-3 -Dare you venture into Gollum's Lair? JESUS LIVES!

01-27-2002, 10:24 PM	#24
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Ah yes. I"m trying to get all the way through it for the first tiem by the end of this year. Quite a 'chore'. I like to read it, but it is a bit...confusing at times. ::shrug:: May be because I'm having some conflicts with youth groups, BUT...this is a thread about why books are better than drugs. The 'high' you get from books can last a life time. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

01-27-2002, 11:26 PM	#26
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	What the heck is the Pentateuch? I don't agree with a lot of Catholic beliefs, I'm a Protestant (Methodist, to be exact), and I've stumbled upon a few of those things, but it actually hasn't pulled me away from God at all. In fact, it made me closer. I'm also not one of those 'brainwashed' Christians. That's why I'm having problems with my youth group. ANYWAY...I'd talk about it more, but 1) this isn't the thread for it adn 2) i'm really tired. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

01-28-2002, 01:30 AM	#27
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Hmmm, can't say I want to read any more of the Bible than I already have, but it's definitely better than drugs. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

01-29-2002, 06:58 PM	#30
Sakata Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Lothlorien Posts: 216	Um, well it cant be a disscution unless someone else posts something! __________________ "When evil people come to destroy me, when my enemies and foes attack me, they will stumble and fall. Though a mighty army surrounds me, my heart will know no fear." -Psalms 27:2-3 -Dare you venture into Gollum's Lair? JESUS LIVES!

01-27-2002, 10:59 PM	#25
mirrille Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 479	That depends. I embarked on a similar project around Grade 8. Decided the most logical thing would be to start at the beginning of the Bible and work my way toward the end. At the time it made sense to do it that way because I was going to a Catholic school and officially a baptised Catholic and I figured the central holy book might be a proper thing to read. Let's just say...I never got past the Pentateuch. I decided that I had some serious issues with the way this god was going about some things. Seemed like there was an awful lot of gratuitous smiting going on and maybe my sensitive innocent 13 year old mind couldn't deal with the perceived injustice. And that's how 9 years of Catholic education went completely to waste. At the time I was probably having some doubts about my faith to begin with, so maybe I was more vulnerable to that. I had to read some more of it for an English class much later. There's some good stuff in there,...but...not enough to bring me back. Still, people who believe enough and are brave enough to sneak those things around are pretty amazing. Just goes to show how powerful books are. Empires fear them because they encourage THINKING.

01-28-2002, 07:11 AM	#28
noldo Elven Icon Maker Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Finland Posts: 517	OMG, tis' going to be another bible conversation?

01-29-2002, 07:22 PM	#31
Aragorn Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Anywhere but where I should be. Posts: 369	I'm obviously not gonna read the bible because I don't believe in god. Never have, never will. It's all a load of bull to me. __________________ And they carried them to the flatlands But they died along the way And they built up with their bare hands What we still can't do today. EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO till the day I die.

01-29-2002, 07:39 PM	#32
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	My biggest problem with atheism is this... Where did everything begin...where did matter and energy come from... It can't have just existed forever because infinity is a completely theoretical number. I could count to 1 trillion and I would be no closer to infinity than I was at 1. Now if today is 0 then when the earth began would be -infinity, Not only would you not know where to end you wouldn't have a place to begin. The creationist theory is that god existed outside of time and created time. There is as I see it no reasonable explanation outside of something supernatural. Do you, Aragorn, have an explanation? __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

01-29-2002, 08:23 PM	#33
Aragorn Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Anywhere but where I should be. Posts: 369	No, none of us do, yet we strive to know everyting, so therefore we create some completely bull explanation that there's some all powerful being that could kill anyone off with the wave of his hand. I find it completely bogus. I believe in reincarnation and evolution. My point is nobody fricken knows what the hell happened to make us be so us, having to have a logical answer to EVERYTHING create some myth that just got popular. Everyone has a different type of theory on gods. People in Afganistan believe in Islam, the ancient Greeks believed in many gods, the Romans the same, about every single civilization has a different theory on gods and how the world came to be. Out of all the past theories and all the ones to come, why do you think yours is real? Why do you think every other theory about many gods, or Islam, is utter bull and yours is correct? You have no fricken idea if your right or not! And you'll find out when you die, but you can't tell anyone, so it doesn't matter. None of this even matters. In the end your just going to live your life, irrelevent in the population, irrelevent in the world, irrelevent in the universe, it doesn't matter, you can't change ****, and in the end. It just doesn't matter what you believe in. Now I'm done discussing religion so don't even try to debate this further with me. __________________ And they carried them to the flatlands But they died along the way And they built up with their bare hands What we still can't do today. EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO till the day I die.

01-29-2002, 08:56 PM	#35
mirrille Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 479	Who was it that said "You (the god-believer) and I (the atheist) are actually very alike. You just believe in one more god than I do. Once you understand why you reject all the other possible gods, then you will understand why I reject yours."? I read that as a famous quote from somewhere and thought it was neat, but I can't remember who it was. I'm not sure I got the exact wording right. Anyways, pseudodebates about this are very tiresome. It's already obvious that we are approaching the problem from very different origins/mindsets. There is never a conclusion. For example, Carden is approaching this from the point of view that having supernatural beings is the superior system because there are things in the world that (currently) have no explanation. Aragorn is approaching this from the point of view that inventing supernatural beings to explain things is so common, so he finds no validity in this method. Neither side ever sees eye to eye because they are practically speaking about different problems. It becomes a match to establish which approach is better, but of course in real life, all aproaches have their uses. The thought system and priorities are too different. It's not even a real debate. Me? I'll provisionally believe anything that makes sense to me. But I'll be waiting for the data.

01-29-2002, 09:00 PM	#36
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	I'm not arguing for my god..currently I'm arguing for A god. __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

01-29-2002, 09:09 PM	#37
mirrille Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 479	Supernatural all depends on what you define as being natural. I don't even want to get into that one right now. As far as I'm concerned, if it happened, it's natural (a part of reality, as it were). Therefore, nothing in the world is supernatural. There are just things that we can't explain (yet! ) Maybe gods are natural. I haven't seen one yet, but maybe I didn't know if I saw one.) But you can see the problems with this kind of semantics? There are too many ways to define nature. Anyways. Let's talk about books! Sure, there are religious books. There are tons of different ones. They're fun. They lend meaning to some peoples' lives. They are also important historical documents that give us insight into how a society thinks (if there is such a thing as a collective mind.) Books written ABOUT religious books are also like that. The kind of reading material you find at the bestseller rack in your local bookstore will also give you a glimpse of that. Umm...books are cool because when the person who wrote them is gone, the words live on!

01-29-2002, 09:47 PM	#38
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Bah. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-29-2002, 09:49 PM	#39
Aragorn Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Anywhere but where I should be. Posts: 369	Aye, what he said. Why is this so important to everyone? We all have our different beliefs, obviously we're not going to change each others minds, so let's just drop it. __________________ And they carried them to the flatlands But they died along the way And they built up with their bare hands What we still can't do today. EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO till the day I die.

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