Legalization of Drugs Debate

[Ragnarok]

I did a search for this topic and only found a dated thread on decriminalizing marijuana, which is very specific, I'm talking about all drugs in general.

Sweden has one of the lowest crime rates in the western world and guess what... drugs are legal there. Believe it or not, there is a connection between high crime rate and drugs being illegal in the U.S.A. (which I will talk about later in my post) Prohibition is a great example of what happens when you put a ban on something, the amount of alcohol consumption and crime increased when it was made illegal. It is also a cold fact that in the United States typically drug offenders do more time in prison than child molesters, rapists and murders. Part of this reason is because prisons are overpopulated.

The Drug War has led to some of the worst violations of the constitutional liberties of Americans, as well as to the worst wave of violent crime in American history since Alcohol Prohibition. It has been used to rationalize unlawful searches and seizures, corruption of the court system, no-knock raids, racial profiling, and "civil asset forfeiture"—a policy whereby government officials can confiscate private property without even charging anyone with a crime. The War on Drugs, more than anything else, has served as a means of destroying the Bill of Rights. It has also led to excessive taxes and spending, costing more than 40 billion dollars a year to arrest, prosecute and imprison non-violent drug offenders.

Drug Prohibition has caused gang warfare and other violent crime by raising the prices of drugs so much that vicious criminals enter the market to make astronomical profits, and addicts rob and steal to get money to pay the inflated prices for their drugs. On average, drug prisoners spend more time in federal prison than rapists, who often get out on early release because of the over-crowding in prison caused by the Drug War. While violent criminals can usually have their sentences reduced, drug offenders are subject to "mandatory minimums," which strip away judicial discretion and force judges to put users and dealers in prison for decades.

The Drug War also has funded terrorists; providing them with opportunities for enormous profits, and even by giving foreign aid to such regimes as the Taliban as long as they promised to have "tough drug" policies.

The Drug War does not curb demand, it barely reduces supply, however it makes America much more dangerous and much less free. I think there should be laws on drugs, but making them illegal has caused many other problems which can be traced back to illegal drugs. Think of the gangs such as the bloods and krypts, the drive-by shootings, theft and murder which many times have been drug related.

I have more to say, but I got to go, so I will save it for another post. Let the discussion begin.

[mithrand1r]

I do not think that drugs (for non-medicinal purposes) are worthwhile to an individual or society.

In this post, I am refereing about drugs for non-medicinal purposes.

Usually an individual will take drugs to feel real good or forget about their problems for a time.

The problem is that the effects of the drug is temporary. The problems you were trying to forget are stil there. Often, there are some bad side effects associated with drug use.

That being said, I am willing to see how US society will be with legalized drugs. I do not advocate their misuse and I am strongly in favor of educating people to the dangers and consequenses of drug use. I am willing to see how our society can handle the legalization of drug use.

There should also be good programs to assist addicted people that wish to stop taking drugs.

The penalties for causing harm to another (either their property or person) should be for financial restitution for the harm they have caused.

If after several years this does not work, we can go back to the way things were.

[gollum9630]

Originally posted by mithrand1r
If after several years this does not work, we can go back to the way things were.

except then you have even more people who are addicted to drugs that are now illegal

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by gollum9630
except then you have even more people who are addicted to drugs that are now illegal

What you say is probably correct. I still think that I am willing to try the other path.

I am curious about the history of this, so I will look into the history of drug use in the USA before they became illegal.

Here is one web site I found that appears interesting.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/whiteb1.htm

I can not look more for now, but it is a start.

[Millane]

i tend to lean both ways on this... i truly think that marijuana should be legalised (especially because alcohol is), through my personal experiance and observation i believe that alcohol is more harmful than marijuana.
Ragnarok the marijuana thread had the ability to be discussed because it was specific, am i right in saying that you think ALL drugs should be legalised, because i believe that some drugs are worse than others and SHOULDNT be allowed to be legalised.
one obvious pro for this debate is that since drugs are always available anyway (the town where i live has recently had huge drug busts and all of the dealers suppliers have been arrested, yet that really hasnt stopped anything except providing unbusted dealers more business) legalising them would not only make them cheaper (user happy, crime rates down) but also allow Govt standards so people arent being sold all sorts of dangerous chemicals.
yeah i had more to say but im reading a drugs forum at the moment and my line of thought is lost

[Valandil]

Ragnarok, you make some very interesting points. I've heard a lot of those arguements before too... so it's something that comes to mind now and then.

I'm not to the point of favoring legalization. However, I think we've taken some things a bit too far... elevating drug crimes so far above others. I think there's sort of a 'fear factor' involved which politicians have used to advance themselves. Maybe it sounds impersonal to talk about a 'war on drugs' - because we can lead ourselves to believe we're fighting a thing and not people.

Unfortunately, it's probably political suicide for someone (from EITHER major party) to speak against the 'war on drugs' during an election.

It would be real nice if we could be a bit more reasonable about all this though... and work harder to figure out just what penalties are REALLY merited by low-level dealers, etc.

[The Gaffer]

I agree with a lot of what you say, Ragnarok. The politics of drugs tends to be about as rational as an emu on acid.

I have to say that there is as much irrationality on the side of the legalisers as on the prohibitionists, though. The harms of drug use are not just a result of their illegal status.

Interesting that you mention the Taliban, who effectively destroyed the heroin output of Afghanistan: since they were thrown out, production is now back up to pre-war levels.

So, where to start? Should all persons have a right to put whatever they want into their bodies?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
So, where to start? Should all persons have a right to put whatever they want into their bodies?

It would be one thing if it was a rational choice... but that's not what you usually have with an addiction. And so many become addicted at a young age (as minors, for instance), or otherwise vulnerable point. If we then take the view of simply allowing adults to make these (harmful) choices for themselves - that also allows those who profit from drugs to seek ways to reach young people (even if still illegally) - who could then continue to 'choose' to use those drugs upon reaching adulthood.

(EDIT: and Gaffer - I get the impression you're hinting at the same thing... maybe I shouldn't have spelled it out so soon )

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i agree with the points made in your arguement, ragnarok,
however I feel that some drugs should not be legalised.
such drugs as marijuana should be legal, but not when
you get into the realms of heroin etc.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Valandil
(EDIT: and Gaffer - I get the impression you're hinting at the same thing... maybe I shouldn't have spelled it out so soon )

Oh, straight to the heart of the matter, spoiling all our fun as usual .

It would be worth thinking, IMO, about these kinds of rights, and whether people should be allowed to make harmful choices. In those terms, it revolves around things like:
- if you're an addict, are you by definitionincapable of making a free choice?
- what do we mean by "harmful choices"?
- hey, we can choose to drive a 4x4 and pollute the planet, so why aren't all harmful choices illegal?
- how can we justify flogging fags (that's "selling cigarettes" to our transatlantic cousins, not a lifestyle choice ), which we know have a 50% chance of killing you (not to mention other choice stuff like starting wars to enable us to secure better supplies of oil so we can turn the planet into a toilet slightly faster) while telling some stoner that it's bad for him to have a spliff with his mates while listening to Stairway to Heaven (OK, bad example, but you know what I mean)

Anyone here remember what Bill Hicks said about illegal drugs?

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
I agree with a lot of what you say, Ragnarok. The politics of drugs tends to be about as rational as an emu on acid.

I have to say that there is as much irrationality on the side of the legalisers as on the prohibitionists, though. The harms of drug use are not just a result of their illegal status.

Interesting that you mention the Taliban, who effectively destroyed the heroin output of Afghanistan: since they were thrown out, production is now back up to pre-war levels.

So, where to start? Should all persons have a right to put whatever they want into their bodies?

I think there should be an age limit such as 18 or 21, but seriously...

Alcohol is bad for your body, it harms the liver and causes many other problems as well, yet is is tolerated. People are allowed to become addicted even though it is a toxin. Cigerettes are also tolerated even though they are addictive and cause several different cancers and destroys your lungs. But you want to know why its ok, because big corporations are getting filthy rich. People should have the right to choose what they put in their body.

The thing is, whether you want to believe it or not, there is alot of drugs in America. Part of the reason is because dealers can make ridiculous amounts of money because drugs are illegal and prices are inflated. The ban of drugs has done NOTHING to stop the flow of drugs in America, what it has done is established an underground market that has flourished with crime.

[brownjenkins]

i'd like to see all drugs made legal... but banned from advertising/marketing... and i think this ban should also apply to alcohol... especially beer companies that blatantly advertise to minors

i would remove age limits, but include drug/alcohol education in schools starting at a very young age... since many young children have to experience the effects of drugs and alcohol from their parents long before they might actually use them

i'd also make treatment options for abusers free and easily-accessible... and never put someone in jail for using drugs/alcohol... though loss of license and maybe 'house arrest' might be necessary in some situations

basically, take away the taboos, face the realties and talk about them freely... drug and alcohol abuse is a problem to be treated, not a crime

[The Gaffer]

Actually, there's pretty good evidence that a small amount of alcohol (like, 2 glasses of win a day) is good for you.

[The Gaffer]

Oh, I looked up the Bill Hicks quote; I thought you might like it:

I think it's interesting the two drugs that are legal - alcohol and cigarettes, two drugs that do absolutely nothing for you at all - are legal, and the drugs that might open your mind up to realise how you're being [naughty sweary word]-ed every day of your life? Those drugs are against the law. Coincidence? ...How are we gonna justify arms dealing if we know we're all one?

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Actually, there's pretty good evidence that a small amount of alcohol (like, 2 glasses of win a day) is good for you.

Yes that is true, however anything in large amounts is bad for you. Take water for example, if you drink too much water, you'll get water poisoning which will get you a trip to the hospital.

[Rían]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
... (not to mention other choice stuff like starting wars to enable us to secure better supplies of oil so we can turn the planet into a toilet slightly faster) ...

Gaf-fer ... *stern look*

drugs, drugs, drugs ... too complicated for a summer topic for me ... carry on!

[gollum9630]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
Yes that is true, however anything in large amounts is bad for you. Take water for example, if you drink too much water, you'll get water poisoning which will get you a trip to the hospital.

You can get water poisoning . man, you DO learn new things on the internet

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by gollum9630
You can get water poisoning . man, you DO learn new things on the internet

You can take a look at the MSDS. (I forget what the initials represent ) The MSDS book contains all of the potential hazards of many chemical compounds including NaCl (table salt) and H2O (water).

The MSDS is used primarily by industry and business.

[Millane]

So brownjenkins are you for the legalisation of every drug???
lets why not make a list
probably only for marijuana to be legalised, but my friend had mushrooms on a school trip to Japan and he loved it (quite odd if you knew him, big on grog but despises drugs especially marijuana), but he did fall through one of those nice frail walls
ive heard some bad **** about acid, apparently its not all about interacting with Return of the Jedi, and although ive heard its not addictive it can very easily **** you up, sounds cool but too risky
Unless they pretty much lower the price of heroin coke and ecstasy people will continue to fund their habit through crime (then we can make stealing legal )
Ragnarok are ALL drugs legal in Sweden, if that is true could a swede give us some info, govt regulations and prices maybe? (if this involves going into a "shifty" part of town dont worry, or take a gun )
I have heard that in some places in Europe there are bars where you can order a bong is this true?

[brownjenkins]

i try to be pragmatic... simply put, if people want something, they will try to get it, and eventually obtain it... and the harder you make that thing to get... the more expensive it becomes... which leads to more crime and death around its trade

to which some might say 'oh, then why not make prostitution legal'

the difference in my mind is the victim... in a world of illegal drugs, the user, and all the people caught up in the crime surrounding it are victims... in a world of legal drugs, for the most part, the victim is only the user... yes, there are still innocents involved, but much like with alcohol, the innocents who die at the hands of drunk drivers pale in comparison to the amount that suffered due to the crime that surrounded the illegal alcohol trade during prohabition

i went to school in the reagan 'war on drugs' 80s in mid-to-upper class suburban usa... and there was not a single drug i could not get a hold of in high school, any day of the week, if i wanted it... and had the money

legalizing drugs is just admitting to ourselves an entire market that already exists, and instead of trying to fight it... trying our best to control and deal with it... lives will be ruined either way, the question for me is which course will ruin less lives