English spelling reform

[Linaewen]

From Mark Twain's speeches
"What is the real function, the essential function, the supreme function, of language? Isn't it merely to convey ideas and emotions? Certainly. Then if we can do it with words of fonetic brevity and compactness, why keep the present cumbersome forms?"

English has one of the most difficult and inconsistent spelling systems in the world. Many other languages have updated their spelling systems, with spelling reforms for German, Dutch and some Scandinavian languages to name a few. Even Chinese, which doesn't even have an alphabet, has simplified its spelling successfully. And Chinese has more speakers than English does.

Spelling reforms would make English much easier to learn and to spell, even for native speakers. I've read that if you had a small card with explanations of pronunciation for Spanish, you could get around in a Spanish speaking country with relatively correct pronunciation. A card for the same purpose for English would be roughly the size of a fridge.

There are many arguments for a spelling reform, some of which can be found at some sites including
Why English spelling should be updated

What do you think? Would a spelling reform be too impractical? But if it worked for Chinese, with a vastly different & incredibly complex spelling system, why not English?

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Linaewen
Why English spelling should be updated

What do you think? Would a spelling reform be too impractical? But if it worked for Chinese, with a vastly different & incredibly complex spelling system, why not English?

I think that an English spelling reform would be very good. About 750 million people in the world speak English although it is not their native tongue. Think of how easier it would be for them to write English if one could simplify the spelling. Perhaps even more people around the globe would try and learn English then.
Of course, those who speak English as their mother tongue would also benefit from a spelling reform.

Though a spelling reform could take away some of the English language's distinctive character. A few hundred years ago, there was a spelling reform to make English look more like Latin. For example, the word 'peinture' become 'picture' (the word 'pictura' in Latin), 'doute' became 'doubt' (from the Latin word 'dubtare') and 'amiral' became 'admiral' (the Latin word 'admire', which doesn't really have anything to do with 'admiral'. The people who reformed the English spelling made a little mistake there )
After all these years, it would feel a little sad to just 'take away' the influence that Latin has had over English spelling.

But I believe the advantages of a reform to make English spelling easier are more than the disadvantages.

Swedish spellers always come near the top in all in international comparisons standars of literacy

I just had to quote that from the website that Linaewen referred to

[Linaewen]

Why not Spelling Reform?

and

English spelling reform

Those sites have some information regarding historical heritage. Uh, I believe (or hope) that the typos on those pages are intentional.

English apparently typically has about 14 different spellings for the same sound, and is only about 40% phonetically accurate. (If I remember correctly). How much easier would it be to cut that down? Even native English speakers can't spell very well- our pronunciation is often completely out of whack. (For example the common spelling errors- 'definately' and 'seperately')

And yes, it'd be sad to let go of some of our 'distinctive character', but then again China did it also- and Chinese has far more of it then English does. Its words are pictorial, not alphabetic after all.

[jerseydevil]

The US already had spelling reform in the the late 1700's when we became a nation. We no longer spell theater - theatre. As I have said - why in other english speaking countries does it end in "re" when it's pronounced as "er". Plus we removed the "u" which is silent in words such as color. So instead of spelling it colour - we spell it color.

It is funny that you say that English should be reformed to make the spellings closer to the pronounciation - when America has already done this, yet many people on this board have have stated they feel the British spellings are superior to the American spellings - including people whom English is a foreign language to.

American and British English Differences

Spelling
Some words shared by all English speakers are spelled one way by Americans but spelt differently by Britons. Many of these are American "simplifications" of the original spellings, often due to Noah Webster. In some cases, the American versions have found their way across the Atlantic and become common British usage as well, for example program (in the computing sense).

The Wikipedia:Manual of Style accepts both British and American spelling, although recommending American spelling for American subjects and vice versa. Direct quotes and proper names -- for example 'Pearl Harbor' -- should go as written.

* Words ending in -our: British colour, favour, flavour, honour, humour, labour, savour, etc.; American color, favor, flavor, honor, etc. Also derivatives and inflected forms: British favourite, savoury; American favorite, savory. Hour, our, flour, sour, and soury are the same in both languages.
* Words ending in -re: British centre, fibre, metre, theatre (showing an influence from French); American center, fiber, meter, theater. The adjectival forms of these words are the same in both conventions, however; Americans do not write centeral, fiberous, meteric or theaterical. Britons use meter for a measuring device and metre for the unit of measure. The British forms are recognizable by Americans and occasionally found in American texts, though their usage may be considered an affectation.
* Greek-derived words with ae or æ and oe or œ: British aesthetic, amoeba, anaemia, anaesthesia, archaeology, diarrhoea, foetus, gynaecology, mediaeval, encyclopaedia; American esthetic, ameba, anemia, anesthesia, archeology, diarrhea, fetus, gynecology, medieval, encyclopedia. British manoeuvre seems to be a special case: its oe was not derived from Greek, but was apparently changed to maneuver in American English on the mistaken belief that it was. British aeroplane and American airplane is a special case in that it's not a straight ae -> e substitution like the rest, it's in fact a different word rather than a different spelling. Some of the British forms are also common in American usage, particularly aesthetic and amoeba, although esthetic and ameba do appear as well. The spelling encyclopedia is sometimes used in British English, although encyclopaedia is also used.

continued....

[jerseydevil]

* Words ending in -gue: British analogue, catalogue, dialogue; American analog, catalog, dialog. Although the -gue forms are also common in American. However some -gue forms are common in both British and American usages such as demagogue and vogue (otherwise it would be just vog).
* Words ending in -ise: British colonise, harmonise, realise; American colonize, harmonize, realize. However, while both the Oxford English Dictionary and Fowler's Modern English Usage prefer -ize, the norm is to use -ise as the standard orthographical practice. Derivatives and inflected forms: British realisation; American realization. Also: British analyse; American analyze. It should also be noted that not all spellings are interchangeable, for this is valid solely for words deriving from Greek. Some words take the z form exclusively, for instance capsize, prize (to value), seize, size, while others take only s: advertise, advise, apprise, arise, circumcise, comprise, demise, despise, devise, disguise, exercise, franchise, improvise, incise, promise, poise, praise, raise, rise, supervise, surmise, surprise and televise.
* Words ending in -xion: The erratic spellings connexion, inflexion, reflexion are now rare, understandably as their stems are connect, inflect and reflect.

The more common American connection, inflection, reflection have become the standard in British English. However complexion is still generally used in preference to complection, as it comes from the stem complex, as with crucifix and crucifixion.

* British English generally doubles final -l when adding postfixes that begin with a vowel, where American English doubles it only on stressed syllables. British counsellor, equalling, modelling, quarrelled, signalling, travelled, tranquillity; American counselor, equaling, modeling, quarreled, signaling, traveled, tranquility. But compelled, excelling, propelled, rebelling in both, although Americans also use exceling, propeled, rebeling. British speakers also use a single l before postfixes beginning with a consonant where Americans use a double: British enrolment, fulfilment, instalment, skilful; American enrollment, fulfillment, installment, skillful.
* British English often keeps silent e when adding postfixes where American English doesn't. British ageing, judgement, routeing; American aging, judgment, routing. Arguement is found in some places, though the form argument is universal in British English.
* Nouns ending in -ce with -se verb forms: American English retains the noun/verb distinction in advice / advise and device / devise (pronouncing them differently), but has lost the same distinction with licence / license and practice / practise that British English retains. American English uses practice exclusively for both meanings, and license for both meanings (although licence is an accepted variant spelling). Also, British defence, offence, pretence; American defense, offense, pretense.
* Miscellaneous: British aluminium, artefact, cheque, disc, draught, glycerine, gaol, grey, jewellery, kerb, mould, plough, pyjamas, programme, speciality, sulphur, tyre, carburettor; American aluminum, artifact, check, disk, draft, glycerin, jail, gray, jewelry, curb, mold, plow, pajamas, program, specialty, sulfur, tire, carburetor. The word curb is used in British for the verb meaning "to restrain" or "to control", but the edge of a roadway is always a kerb. British English uses both draught and draft, depending on the sense, and uses jail and jailer more often than gaol and gaoler (except to describe a mediaeval (medieval) building and guard). The form program is normal in British English when referring to a computer program, but for other uses programme is usual. British use storey for a level of a building and story for a tale; Americans use story for both. Americans use vise for the tool and vice for the sin, while British use vice for both. The spelling grey is not uncommon in America. Lieutenant is spelt the same in both countries, but America pronounces as spelt -- lootenant and the English pronounces it leftenant.

[HOBBIT]

I don't want my language to change on me. I like american english the way it is. Just read lots of books if you want to be more clear on spellings and grammar - that has helped me a lot!

I was also lucky enough to be raised in a house where my parents spoke english properly.

It is very annoying all the times that english words are spelled incorrectly on this board "realise" "criticise" they have z's people. i see "there" instead of 'their' and many more.

[Artanis]

Spelling is not a problem with a foreign language, grammar is. Emglish grammar is simple, and therefore English is easy to learn. Spanish may have a consistent spelling system, but its grammar is terribly complicated and really hard to get a grip on.

There was a a grammar reform in Norway some 20 years ago, bringing the two Norwegian official languages closer to each other. Also there are now and then reforms that allow foreign words to be spelled according to the Norwegian way of pronunciation. Like 'pub' can now be spelled 'pøbb' in Norway, snacks -> snæks, juice -> jus.

[jerseydevil]

I was going to add- although Hobbit beat me to it - I don't want English reform nor do I think it is necessary. The English language is a living language - it grows and evolves. It's not artificially hampered and controlled like the French language is from changes. We borrow words from all different languages. There are enough American movies out there so people in foreign countries should have a much easier time of learning how words are pronounced versus how they are spelt.

I find french - out of all the languages I have studied to be the hardest to pronunce. So many rules - on word connection and all this other stuff. Why don't we have the French reform their language so it's easier to pronounce. Sorry - but French also sounds like a wimp language.

I think generally pronounciation wise - Italian and Spanish are the easiest as far as foreign languages go. Of course I find the English language the easiest though - since I speak it every day. We don't learn English the same way as a foreign language student - so we don't look at it the same way.

[HOBBIT]

French is pretty silly, I think it should be changed too

[Sween]

Ahhhhhh at last a subject i can sink my teath into. As some of you have noticed im not the worlds best speller ! But i do have a major complaint with the english language they make it much harder than it needs to be!

I am all for the phonetic spelling of words. I mean some may think this would be a dumbing down of English but you know why make life more complicated than it allready is?

Anothing thing that pi**es me off is why did they make Dislexia such a hard word to spell for people that struggle at the best of time i think someone just wants to make my life a constant pain in the rear end

[Shadowfax]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
French is pretty silly, I think it should be changed too

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I find french - out of all the languages I have studied to be the hardest to pronunce. So many rules - on word connection and all this other stuff. Why don't we have the French reform their language so it's easier to pronounce. Sorry - but French also sounds like a wimp language.

I think that those were very ignorant and insensitive comments. I am a native English speaker, but I know French too, and I happen to like French a lot more than English, and think that it sounds much more beautiful. Yes, it does evlove and change over time, but (to me) this language seems very unoriginal (so many borrowings from other languages starting from the time of the Norman (French) conquest in 1066). I seriously wish that I was not a native speaker of the English language. I also don't think that a spelling reform would be a good idea.

I apologise in advance to those of you who think that my comments were insensitive, but I think that languages shouldn't be reformed or changed so that they are easier for foreigners to pronounce or learn. If that continued, we would eventually all be speaking one big muddled universal language, which would be a real shame. I think that each language is different and is supposed to be that way. If someone wants to learn to speak another language and yet they are not willing to actually try, then they will never learn it or will always think it is stupid or "wimpy" because it is just different from their own!

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
It is very annoying all the times that english words are spelled incorrectly on this board "realise" "criticise" they have z's people. i see "there" instead of 'their' and many more.

They're the British variants, you silly yank.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
I think that those were very ignorant and insensitive comments. I am a native English speaker, but I know French too, and I happen to like French a lot more than English, and think that it sounds much more beautiful.

Sorry - I don't really think that french sounds any more beautiful. I think it does sound like a wimp language. That's my feelings and I took it for two years in college and I have continued to study it on my own. The reason why I did take was because I like to expand my mind. I also took Spanish in high school, I have tried to learn Italian on my own, Russian, Latin and I have books on Swedish.

Yes, it does evlove and change over time, but (to me) this language seems very unoriginal (so many borrowings from other languages starting from the time of the Norman (French) conquest in 1066).

Why is it unoriginal? We evolve and grow and adapt. In France they pass laws outlawing words and try to make it so only French words are used. I'll take the openness and acceptence of the English language before the "cultural superiority" of the French language any day.

I seriously wish that I was not a native speaker of the English language.

So why do you wish you weren't a native English speaker? What is so wrong with being a native speak of english - to me that is an ignorant statement.

I apologise in advance to those of you who think that my comments were insensitive, but I think that languages shouldn't be reformed or changed so that they are easier for foreigners to pronounce or learn. If that continued, we would eventually all be speaking one big muddled universal language, which would be a real shame. I think that each language is different and is supposed to be that way. If someone wants to learn to speak another language and yet they are not willing to actually try, then they will never learn it or will always think it is stupid or "wimpy" because it is just different from their own!

I hope you are not describing my attitude here - because you don't even know how much I have invested in books, DVDs and CDs to learn foreign languages - including French.

As I said - French sounds like a wimp language - okay I'll say how I really feel about the french language - it sounds like a feminine language (that's as close as you'll get to me saying how I really feel about it - you can use your imagination). It's not that it's different that I don't find french that great of a language - I just prefer the sound of Spanish and Italian more than French. I have no feeling on English because I speak it everyday. I prefer certain accents over others - like I don't really like the southern accent - which sounds uneducated, Boston sounds stuck up.

You seem to hate the English language because you feel foreign languages are superior to it. Now as I said - I think that is an ignorant statement, especially since what is the difference if it's a second language or a native language.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sheeana
They're the British variants, you silly yank.

They are not all British variants (like there and their, which are misspellings) and enough people have criticized the American spelling on this board.

I take offense at the "silly YANK" comment. Yank around the world is used like spic or other vulgar term for a nationality or ethnicity. It may not be how you meant it - but I have heard too many people use "yank" as a deragatory word towards Americans. It's only seems to be used by foreigners to indicate their feeling of superiority toward us.

[HOBBIT]

Originally posted by Sheeana
They're the British variants, you silly yank.

no, no.... i mean i see that from people i know to live in the usa - like jersey devil for example (no offense). I also see many other incorrect spellings that are wrong either way.


And..... I have the right to not like French. I do take French as my langauge in school. I find it to be.....annoying...


Is it just me or does it seem like mostly second langauge english speakers would like to see reforms? It's not hard to the natives... .at least most of us.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I take offense at the "silly YANK" comment. Yank around the world is used like spic or other vulgar term for a nationality or ethnicity. It may not be how you meant it - but I have heard too many people use "yank" as a deragatory word towards Americans. It's only seems to be used by foreigners to indicate their feeling of superiority toward us.

I don't use the word "yank" or "yankee" as a negative word. It's just that whenever you get in contact with it, you hear it from an angry, pacifistic foreigner or you see it on demonstrants' placards. That's why you find the word offensive.

You could call BoP 'kiwi' and see if she reacts the same way as you

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
no, no.... i mean i see that from people i know to live in the usa - like jersey devil for example (no offense). I also see many other incorrect spellings that are wrong either way.

I know I sometimes misspell "there and their" when I'm in a hurry - but I know the difference. On the messageboard - sometimes I am not always as careful on my spellings as I should be - so shoot me,

Is it just me or does it seem like mostly second langauge english speakers would like to see reforms? It's not hard to the natives... .at least most of us.

I think it's mostly just second language speakers. I know english is one of the hardest languages to learn - but with modern technology I can't see how it is any harder than any othe language anymore. it's all over the web, TV programs, movies, etc.

I can not imagine how difficult it must have been to learn a foreign language before the phonograph. Thomas Jefferson learned French on the ship on his way to France - I have no idea how he could have possibly have gotten the French pronunciation right. Supposedly he didn't at all - and it wasn't as easy as he initially had written.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Jonathan
You could call BoP 'kiwi' and see if she reacts the same way as you

I don't think Kiwi is used in a negative context though. It's the way a word is usually used.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
Ahhhhhh at last a subject i can sink my teath into. As some of you have noticed im not the worlds best speller ! But i do have a major complaint with the english language they make it much harder than it needs to be!

I am all for the phonetic spelling of words. I mean some may think this would be a dumbing down of English but you know why make life more complicated than it allready is?

Anothing thing that pi**es me off is why did they make Dislexia such a hard word to spell for people that struggle at the best of time i think someone just wants to make my life a constant pain in the rear end

Sween - I still can't stop laughing everytime I read this post.

By the way - you spelt dyslexia wrong.

Just remember it's not whether you can spell or not that's important - it's whether you try your best and whether you can get your ideas across. You get your thoughts across fine - so that's all that's important. There have been many famous people with dyslexia - so it's not a big deal.

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
They are not all British variants (like there and their, which are misspellings) and enough people have criticized the American spelling on this board.

Wasn't talking about their and there.

Originally posted by HOBBIT
no, no.... i mean i see that from people i know to live in the usa - like jersey devil for example (no offense). I also see many other incorrect spellings that are wrong either way.

Ah. Fair enough, then.