Were the Valar Shirking their Duty?

[brownjenkins]

finwe was also feanor's father... and for a man who had already lost his mother, no minor loss

there were many factors involved... not the least of which was a desire for adventure, which even finrod expressed

maybe there was a touch of the classic "it is better to rule in hell then serve in heaven"

[Maedhros]

The word 'shirk' was new to me, so my silly brain interpreted it to 'shrink'.

It was new to a lot of us too.

shrink: To show reluctance; hesitate: shrink from making such a sacrifice.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

and we have the new word:

shirk: To avoid work or duty.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

From the Converse of Manwë and Eru

There were many such fëar of Elves who had died in Middle-earth gathered in the Halls of Mandos, but it was not until the death of MÃ*riel in Aman that Manwë appealed directly to Eru for counsel. Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it

The Valar did both. They shrunk and shirked from their duty at that particular time.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
That may all be true. But the facts are this: Morgoth came to Valinor, killed the 2 trees, killed Finwe-King of the Noldor and stole the silmarils. Wanna know what the Valar did? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

Now we all know that Feanor was persueded by the words of Melkor, and his oath was made in haste, but the Valar didnt help things out by sitting by and doing nothing. How could the Elves believe they were safer in Valinor when the high king of the Noldor was murdered right under their noses and the Valor chose to do nothing?

Morgoth was brought in chains and held for 3 ages. He didn't come of his own will. He convinced the Valar that he had repented and they let him loose, in fact he had not and only planned vengence for being spanked.

What would you have the Valar do? Reek vengence upon Melkor? That's not their style. I don't see the Valar as petty and vengeful. I see them more as trusting yet wise, powerful yet gentle. The pettiness and vengence was something that Melkor had a lot of. It made him the bad guy.

As for Valinor, it is a place of safety only because it is hidden from most of the world. It is a place of beauty because it is the undying lands. It is a place of peace because there is plenty and no one wants for anything. There is no sickness or dying there. A place does not become safe when it is made into a prison, it is only made a stronghold for misery.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

How can one compare the war and death of Middle Earth, war and death that the Noldor were warned would come to pass if they left Valinor, with the peace of the Undying Lands?

Melkor destroyed the two trees. Melkor killed the high king of the Noldor. Melkor stole the Silmarils. These things he did in Valinor and these things are not in dispute.

What is in question, is the relative safety of Aman opposed to Middle Earth.

Melkor was able to throw down the lamps of the Valar IN Middle Earth, as well as cast his darkness and his creatures all over the north of Beleriand. His Balrogs, Dragons and Orcish armies wrought massive devastation to all the Children of Iluvatar, killing a great number, INCLUDING several Kings and Lords of the Noldor and the Sindar.

The security of Valinor was breached just once, but how many Elvish cities and strongholds were sacked during the War of Beleriand?

So good call Noldor, that choice really panned out, didn't it?

Oh, and of course this claim:
"Wanna know what the Valar did? Nothing, absolutely nothing. " as was so elequently phrased by a previous post.

The Valar, as best they may, partially restored the Light of the Two Trees with the Sun and the Moon. The Valar, at first counseled, then insisted, then warned the Noldor, NOT TO GO WHERE THEY COULD NOT PROTECT THEM. Mandos told them of all that would come to pass.
If they had just stayed put, none of their misfortunes would have happened. The Noldor should have had more faith in Manwe and less trust in Melkor.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Glorfindel_of_Gondolin
How can one compare the war and death of Middle Earth, war and death that the Noldor were warned would come to pass if they left Valinor, with the peace of the Undying Lands?

...What is in question, is the relative safety of Aman opposed to Middle Earth.

....The security of Valinor was breached just once, but how many Elvish cities and strongholds were sacked during the War of Beleriand?

So good call Noldor, that choice really panned out, didn't it?

...The Valar, as best they may, partially restored the Light of the Two Trees with the Sun and the Moon. The Valar, at first counseled, then insisted, then warned the Noldor, NOT TO GO WHERE THEY COULD NOT PROTECT THEM. Mandos told them of all that would come to pass.
If they had just stayed put, none of their misfortunes would have happened. The Noldor should have had more faith in Manwe and less trust in Melkor.

I agree, Valinor was a safer place than ME. And what came to the Noldor had been warned.

One thing that I dispute about what you say... it was not that the Noldor trusted in Melkor, it was that Feanor lent an ear to Melkor's false words learning all too late how false those words were.

The body of people who are the Noldor followed their lords to ME, and it was their loyalty and love of kin that kept them together. When Feanor swore an oath to go to ME and take back the Silmarils it was with great sadness that some of them went with him. Some wanted to taste adventure (like Galadriel), that is true... but for the most part, they grieved to leave the peace and beauty of the Undying Lands.

In all, it was Feanor's decision that brought them all to ME, and not a group democratic vote on the matter.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
One thing that I dispute about what you say... it was not that the Noldor trusted in Melkor, it was that Feanor lent an ear to Melkor's false words learning all too late how false those words were.

The body of people who are the Noldor followed their lords to ME, and it was their loyalty and love of kin that kept them together. When Feanor swore an oath to go to ME and take back the Silmarils it was with great sadness that some of them went with him. Some wanted to taste adventure (like Galadriel), that is true... but for the most part, they grieved to leave the peace and beauty of the Undying Lands.

In all, it was Feanor's decision that brought them all to ME, and not a group democratic vote on the matter.

Don't quite agree with you there Ru. Melkor spread his lies among all of the Noldor, not only to Fëanor. They all lent ear to this treacherous Vala, and trusted his words. Because of these lies and their pride they followed Fëanor into exile of free will. Many people put all the blame onto Fëanor, but I think he only did what many of the other Elves wished to do in their hearts, he was just the only one who was strong and reckless enough to rebel against the Valar openly.

I agree with GoG, Valinor was clearly a safer place than M-E, and I don't see what else the Valar could do to keep the Noldor back, other than giving sincere advice and warnings, which they did to no avail. To use force would be unlawful.

[Valandil]

When I originally posed the question, my thinking was that the Valar shirked their duty LONG before Feanor led the Noldor to Middle-earth. It seemed to me that they should have taken on Melkor from the start and that all Arda should have been under their care - not just Aman. Instead, it seems like they threw up their hands in resignation and retreated to their little corner of the world - when Eru had placed the entire world under their care.

[brownjenkins]

i basically agree with you on that Val... i believe it is even spelled out to some extent in the earlier writings that the valar did not become what they could have been because of this fact

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Valandil
When I originally posed the question, my thinking was that the Valar shirked their duty LONG before Feanor led the Noldor to Middle-earth. It seemed to me that they should have taken on Melkor from the start and that all Arda should have been under their care - not just Aman. Instead, it seems like they threw up their hands in resignation and retreated to their little corner of the world - when Eru had placed the entire world under their care.

What would you have the Valar do? Melkor was their brother-Vala... there was always the hope that he would submit himself to what was best for Ea, putting away his selfish ambitions and doing his part in the Music. There was always hope for Melkor. I don't see this as a fault for the Valar, but rather a strength.

In addition, they did not know what Eru wanted. They only waited for Melkor to come around.. like the Prodigal Son. Though he never did. He squandered the powers Eru gave him in selfishness instead of making ME a better place.

Did the Valar shirk their duties. I say no. They did exactly what they were supposed to do. They weren't meant to war with each other.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
What would you have the Valar do? Melkor was their brother-Vala... there was always the hope that he would submit himself to what was best for Ea, putting away his selfish ambitions and doing his part in the Music. There was always hope for Melkor. I don't see this as a fault for the Valar, but rather a strength.

In addition, they did not know what Eru wanted. They only waited for Melkor to come around.. like the Prodigal Son. Though he never did. He squandered the powers Eru gave him in selfishness instead of making ME a better place.

Did the Valar shirk their duties. I say no. They did exactly what they were supposed to do. They weren't meant to war with each other.

Yes - they were slow to act in their own War on Terror. And in the end, they had to fight him anyway - and the strife caused more damage than if they had taken care of things to begin with.

[Artanis]

Though I agree with you Val and bj, I think it is also quite understandable that they did not make war. Consider that they had laboured long to shape Arda and make it beautiful and good for the Children to inhabit. I can see that they were reluctant to risk destroying it. It is easy to say afterwards what they should have done, but they could not foresee Melkor's later actions.

[brownjenkins]

in lost tales there are a few passages (that i don't have on hand atm) that make it pretty clear that the valar had made a mistake by not taking on melko earlier and removing themselves from the greater part of middle earth

this is also evidenced by ulmo's role in these tales... where he was often at odds with the other valar

tolkien seemed to have moved away from this later on... trying to reconcile the valar's actions as being the will of eru... if i remember right, in lost tales it was represented as the valar's "duty" to care for the children of ilúvatar... later on they seem to have lost this as a direct responsibility, and became more teachers and advisiors

[Valandil]

An amusing notion just struck me: Sure, it's not 100%, but to a large degree, the males posting think the Valar DID shirk their duty and the females think the Valar DID NOT shirk their duty!

Adds weight to the argument that 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' - with Mars being the Roman god of War and Venus the Roman goddess of Love.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Valandil
An amusing notion just struck me: Sure, it's not 100%, but to a large degree, the males posting think the Valar DID shirk their duty and the females think the Valar DID NOT shirk their duty!

Adds weight to the argument that 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' - with Mars being the Roman god of War and Venus the Roman goddess of Love.

I resent generalisations like that - especially since I seem to be an exception to all of them.


brownjenkins, it seems to me that Ulmo had more foreknowledge than the rest of the Valar, so it was easier for him to take actions against Melkor.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Artanis
I resent generalisations like that - especially since I seem to be an exception to all of them.

But you seemed to fall right in line with THIS generalization!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Valandil
But you seemed to fall right in line with THIS generalization!

Read again. I said I agreed with you and brownjenkins. But I understand WHY they did their mistake.

At least that's what I meant to say.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Artanis
Read again. I said I agreed with you and brownjenkins. But I understand WHY they did their mistake.

At least that's what I meant to say.

Well... then there goes my generalization!

[brownjenkins]

i refuse to be generalized... typical comment from a chicagoian

i dug up some relative info from christopher tolkien (from the web, so hopefully accurate... bold added)

Morgoth's Ring (from The Withdrawal of the Valar)

The last major effort, of this demiurgic kind, made by the Valar was the lifting up of the range of the Pelóri to a great height. It is possible to view this as, if not an actually bad action, at least as a mistaken one. Ulmo disapproved of it.*** It had one good, and legitimate object: the preservation incorrupt of at least part of Arda. But it seemed to have a selfish or neglectful (or dispairing) motive also; for the effort to preserve the Elves incorrupt there had proved a failure if they were to be left free: many had refused to come to the Blessed Realm, many had revolted and left it. Whereas, with regard to Men, Manwë and all the Valar knew quite well that they could not come to Aman at all; and the longevity (co-extensive with the life of Arda) of Valar and Eldar was expressly not permitted to Men. Thus the 'Hiding of Valinor' came near to countering Morgoth's possessiveness by a rival possessiveness, setting up a private domain of light and bliss against one of darkness and domination: a palace and a pleasaunce (well-fenced) against a fortress and a dungeon.
This appearance of selfish fainéance in the Valar in the mythology as told is (though I have not explained it or commented on it) I think only an 'appearance', and one which we are apt to accept as truth, since we are all in some degree affected by the shadow and lies of their Enemy, the Calumniator. It has to be remembered that the 'mythology' is represented as being two stages removed from a true record: it is based first upon Elvish records and lore about the Valar and their own dealings with them; and these have reached us (fragmentarily) only through relics of Númenórean (human) traditions, derived from the Eldar, in the earlier parts, though for later times supplemented by anthropocentric histories and tales.(7) These, it is true, came down through the 'Faithful' and their descendants in Middle-earth, but could not altogether escape the darkening of the picture due to the hostility of the rebellious Númenóreans to the Valar.


*** Overt condemnation, strongly expressed, of the Valar for the Hiding of Valinor is found in the story of that named in The Book of Lost Tales (I.208-9), but disappears in the later versions. Of the old story I noted (I.23) that 'in The Silmarillion there is no vestige of the tumultuous council, no suggestion of a disagreement among the Valar, with Manwë, Varda and Ulmo actively disapproving the work and holding aloof from it', and I commented:

It is most curiours to observe that the action of the Valar here sprang essentially from indolence mixed with fear. Nowhere does my father's early conception of the fainéant Gods appear more clearly. He held moreover quite explicitly that their failure to make war upon Melko then and there was a deep error, diminishing themselves, and (as it appears) irreparable. In his later writing the Hiding of Valinor remained indeed, but only as a great fact of mythological antiquity; there is no whisper of its condemnation.

The last words refer to the actual Silmarillion narratives. Ulmo's disapproval now reappears, and is a further evidence of his isolation in the counsels of the Valar (see p. 253 note 11); cf. his words to Tuor at Vinyamar (having spoken to him, among other things, of 'the hiding of the Blessed Realm', though what he said is not told): 'Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethern, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World' (Unfinished Tales p. 29).

i think you can see a movement from somewhat "human" gods (much like those of greek tradition)... to the later ones that seemed to be more instruments of eru/fate... the latter of which makes it more difficult to place blame upon valar, elves or men

[MasterMothra]

Originally posted by Ruinel
What would you have the Valar do? Melkor was their brother-Vala... there was always the hope that he would submit himself to what was best for Ea, putting away his selfish ambitions and doing his part in the Music. There was always hope for Melkor. I don't see this as a fault for the Valar, but rather a strength.

You have got to be kidding, right? Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Melkor was a murderer. Are you saying that it is better to let a murderer run around with the hope that he will be miraculously reformed? I think it is more responsible to cut your losses with Melkor and bring the murderer to justice before he ruins more of middle earth, or murders anyone else.

Which is the more responsible action?

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

There's a bit of a running theme in good old J.R.R's works, and that is that members of the same race are equals and cannot kill or enslave each other without considerable just cause.

Melkor was a Vala, of the same initial grace and power as Manwe himself, and thus could not ever be simply be enslaved and never be killed.

As Ruinel puts it: "There was always hope that he would submit himself to what was best for Ea." This was true from the beginning, even when he started his own themes in the Music.

When he descended into his darkness, he was pursued into Middle earth to have justice done to him, and indeed it was. Many and age of servitude did he endure before he was released into Valinor, and even then, he was watched by the Valar.

Once he destroyed the Two Trees, the Valar were kind of occupied with matters of illumination, and thus were unable to purse Melkor into ME. And after, he was not forgotten, and would have eventually been assailed, but the Noldor somewhat sped up the timetable.

I say again, that if they had just remained in Aman, the Valar could have protected them, and justice would have been done to Morgoth sooner, for the Valar would have been prepared earlier.

They first had to secure the Blessed Realm, thus saving something of the initial paradise before the comeing of Melkor's malice.