Were the Valar Shirking their Duty?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
That's only when you shrink a duty, not 'to shrink' generally...

You're misreading the word RTB. It is 'shirk' not 'shrink'

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
You're misreading the word RTB. It is 'shirk' not 'shrink'

Oh.

[Artanis]

Rad, I did the same mistake at first too.
The word 'shirk' was new to me, so my silly brain interpreted it to 'shrink'.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Rad, I did the same mistake at first too.
The word 'shirk' was new to me, so my silly brain interpreted it to 'shrink'.

It's no big deal. In fact, I've found so many typing errors and outright mispellings (and I'm to blame for some myself) that I have no idea, sometimes, what the poster is trying to say.

[Radagast The Brown]

When I saw it first I was sure it's 'shrinking' from some reason. As Artanis said I guess my brain also interpreted it. But I was so sure it's shrinking! Then, of course, I felt stupid when I realized it's 'shirking'.
But if anything good came out of it, is that now I'm sure I'd remember the word 'shirking'. No way I'm gonna forget.

Thanks, Artanis. Good to now I'm not the only one.

[Ruinel]

As to the question... whether or not the Valar shirked their duties in ME....

Yes, and no.

On the one hand, ME was not made for the Valar to inherit but for the Children of Eru to inhabit. The Valar were to prepare it for their coming. They did that. So, as for those duties, they did not shirk it.

On the other hand, Melkor, the mightiest of the Valar, takes ME for himself. This is not what was meant to be... or was it?

So, lets say that the Valar all ganged up on the mightiest, and there was a great battle between them in the beginning... ruining all that ME was meant to be, making it a hideous waste all over. Would this have been better? No, I don't think so. Even though Melkor made foul a good chunk of ME, he didn't destroy it completely.

Also, think about it all this way... everything in existence... all of Ea... was from Eru, the One. Even Melkor was from Eru. What Melkor was, and what he became, was all a part of Eru's design... he was as much a part of the music as the trees and the Children. Within that design was 'free will', for Melkor, the other Valar, and the Children. Their corruption or their lack of action, was all a part of their own free will. In fact, the 'free will' was part of fate and destiny. So, was it the design of 'free will' that Melkor takes a role in the corruption and spoiling of ME?

From disaster comes rebirth. From the struggle comes strength. And if it were not for the common cause to over take Melkor and throw him from power, Men and Elves might not have found a common ground to come together on.

Therefore, if the Valar had overthrown Melkor at the beginning rather than waiting patiently, things might have gone worse for the Children.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Ruinel
So, lets say that the Valar all ganged up on the mightiest, and there was a great battle between them in the beginning... ruining all that ME was meant to be, making it a hideous waste all over. Would this have been better? No, I don't think so. Even though Melkor made foul a good chunk of ME, he didn't destroy it completely.

But, there was still a war against Melkor in the end of the first age, what's the difference between this war and the war that could've been in the beginning? Only that Morgoth's strength was smaller in the beginning, which could've been easier to the Valar, and many elves and men could've saved.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
But, there was still a war against Melkor in the end of the first age, what's the difference between this war and the war that could've been in the beginning? Only that Morgoth's strength was smaller in the beginning, which could've been easier to the Valar, and many elves and men could've saved.

True, their lives would have been saved. But there would not have been a common ground for the Elves and Men to meet on. In the case that was presented in The Sil they came together, put aside any differences, and became a strong and united force under one cause. Had there been no cause to fight for, they would not have gained from each other. And I suspect their contact would have been minimal.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Ruinel
True, their lives would have been saved. But there would not have been a common ground for the Elves and Men to meet on. In the case that was presented in The Sil they came together, put aside any differences, and became a strong and united force under one cause. Had there been no cause to fight for, they would not have gained from each other. And I suspect their contact would have been minimal.

Maybe. But you can't really know what would might happen if...
My guess is that the Calaquendi would never leave Aman.
What would happen to the men? I think one of the Valar, or maiar would go to teach them 'culture' and 'technology'. And besides the Sindar would be there, to help them, and teach them too.

Edit - and besides it has got nothing to do with the Valar shirking their duties. It's like saying it's good to kill elves and men to get the races close.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Maybe. But you can't really know what would might happen if...
My guess is that the Calaquendi would never leave Aman.
What would happen to the men? I think one of the Valar, or maiar would go to teach them 'culture' and 'technology'. And besides the Sindar would be there, to help them, and teach them too.

Edit - and besides it has got nothing to do with the Valar shirking their duties. It's like saying it's good to kill elves and men to get the races close.

True, we can't say 'what if'... (that's another thread )

If Melkor had been whisked off to the void at the first sign of trouble... then you are right... the whole problem with the Silmarils would never have happened. And the Noldor never would have left in the first place.

But on the other hand, they never would have been brought to Valinor to begin with. The whole purpose of them being shuffled off to Valinor was for their own protection, from Melkor.

It was the Elves that shared their knowledge with Men, not the Valar, not the Maiar. Most of the exchange of knowledge came as a result of the two 'races' uniting under a common cause.

And no, I'm not saying that it's good to kill Elves and Men to get them close. I'm saying they never would have come together if it weren't for their common enemy.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Also, think about it all this way... everything in existence... all of Ea... was from Eru, the One. Even Melkor was from Eru. What Melkor was, and what he became, was all a part of Eru's design... he was as much a part of the music as the trees and the Children. Within that design was 'free will', for Melkor, the other Valar, and the Children. Their corruption or their lack of action, was all a part of their own free will. In fact, the 'free will' was part of fate and destiny. So, was it the design of 'free will' that Melkor takes a role in the corruption and spoiling of ME?

From disaster comes rebirth. From the struggle comes strength. And if it were not for the common cause to over take Melkor and throw him from power, Men and Elves might not have found a common ground to come together on.

Therefore, if the Valar had overthrown Melkor at the beginning rather than waiting patiently, things might have gone worse for the Children.

i agree... i think it was all part of the plan of eru... with the valar playing a more passive than active role... other than melkor, of course... from the way it reads, it's actually hard to say if the valar really had much of a duty at all, other than what they chose to do

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i agree... i think it was all part of the plan of eru... with the valar playing a more passive than active role... other than melkor, of course... from the way it reads, it's actually hard to say if the valar really had much of a duty at all, other than what they chose to do

I always saw the Valar as more of silent partners in ME. They aided in it's creation, they all played a part in it's splendor.

And what you see is what I see as well. Powerful, yes, but I don't feel their part was meant to be active once the Children came into being. Orome leading them to the West was, IMO, a necessary stretch for them from what they were meant to be.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

Bang on target.

The Valar did everything that they were suppose to, in aid of the coming of the Eldar. They prepared Middle Earth for their coming, when Melkor went off the rails; they went to war with him with the specific intent of saving their creation FOR the elves. When he was defeated, ME was tainted by his malice, and thus could never fully be saved. But Aman could.

The Elves were given their chance at paradise, to take the ships to Valinor. Those that did were rewarded with peace and light, and those whom did not come, were not. The Valar cannot make the Eldar do anything, thus the Sindar not being forced to come. They abandoned their shot at Valinor, and are themselves only to blame. The Noldor abandoned Valinor, and thus their pain and grief are also on their heads.

The Valar are not wet nurses to care for the baby Elves. The Eldar have the choice, and those that made the wrong one, suffer their own fate.

In fact, I think the Valar when above and beyond in the War of Wrath, seeing as if the elves had gone to Aman, or stayed there, none of this would have happened.

[MasterMothra]

We see how well the Valar protected the Elves in Valinor. They offered no more protection there than the elves had outside. Who can blame them for leaving.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

and of course, life in a ME under the shadow of Morgoth is immeasurably better than a life in Valinor under the light of Manwe...

They fled for the pride of Feanor under the lies of Morgoth. The Valar tried to warn them as to what would come to pass, but the Noldor heeded them not.

They took the lies of Morgoth over the truth of Manwe.

Let them sleep in the beds they made.

[MasterMothra]

Tell me how life in Valinor offered more protection than outside?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Ruinel
But on the other hand, they never would have been brought to Valinor to begin with. The whole purpose of them being shuffled off to Valinor was for their own protection, from Melkor.

I'm not sure, really, what was the 'purpose' of bringing the Elves to Valinor. Melkor wasn't in power when the Valar decided to bring them, and therefore he can't be the reason for that. The Silmarillion writes that some of the Vlaar were worried about letting the elves stay in Middle Earth from some reason, and thast they also already loved the elves and wanted their company. (selfish matters then)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I'm not sure, really, what was the 'purpose' of bringing the Elves to Valinor. Melkor wasn't in power when the Valar decided to bring them, and therefore he can't be the reason for that. The Silmarillion writes that some of the Vlaar were worried about letting the elves stay in Middle Earth from some reason, and thast they also already loved the elves and wanted their company. (selfish matters then)

There was some concern...

But when the Battle was ended and from the ruin of the North great clouds arose and hid the stars, the Valar drew Melkor back to Valinor,....

Then again the Valar were gathered in council, and they were divided in debate. For some, and of those Ulmo was the chief, held that the Quendi should be left free to walk as they would in Middle-earth, and with their gifts of skill to order all the lands and heal their hurts. But the most part feared for the Quendi in the dangerous world amid the deceits of the starlit dusk; and they were filled moreover with the love of the beauty of the Elves and desired their fellowship....

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
We see how well the Valar protected the Elves in Valinor. They offered no more protection there than the elves had outside. Who can blame them for leaving.

There was more freedom in Aman from Evil than in ME. When the Noldor left because of the errors of pride of Feanor, they did so as a result of Melkor's lies and so that Feanor, et al, could regain the jewels that were his (or so he claimed).

In fact, and I know this is for another thread, I always felt that Feanor was a bit skewed as an Elf. He was quite possessive of what he had made, and for the most part, Elves take joy is the making and practice of skill for others. He certainly, IMO, should have given the Silmarils for all to share, since they were made from the now dead Trees.

[MasterMothra]

That may all be true. But the facts are this: Morgoth came to Valinor, killed the 2 trees, killed Finwe-King of the Noldor and stole the silmarils. Wanna know what the Valar did? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

Now we all know that Feanor was persueded by the words of Melkor, and his oath was made in haste, but the Valar didnt help things out by sitting by and doing nothing. How could the Elves believe they were safer in Valinor when the high king of the Noldor was murdered right under their noses and the Valor chose to do nothing?