Were the Valar Shirking their Duty?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Or it might be that, the Valar had no business dealing with Men at first because Eru was doing that.

Yep, as I quoted Finrod earlier: "Sole masters of yourselves within Arda, under the hand of the One". Eru's gift to Men.

[Maedhros]

Smack.

[Artanis]

*hee hee*

[Thorin II]

Congrats, Artanis. Your smack-down was good enough to shut down this topic.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Thorin II
Congrats, Artanis. Your smack-down was good enough to shut down this topic.

Err - Falagar started this smacking habit, with his frying pan. Blame/congratulate him.

[Valandil]

Is this why, as thread-starter, I suddenly developed a black eye, bloody nose and bruised knee?

[Artanis]

Nobody has smacked you Val - yet.
But if we continue to spam this thread, SGH might fetch her admin stick.

[Orli17]

Hey i haven't entirely read the Silmarillion bu ti have to ask one question......
The Valar were trying to create a utopian society right? What was their motif? cuz we have a project for history class about utopian societies that fialed and i decided to do teh valar seeing that melkor messed up middle earth...can anyone help me? And whcih parts should i read in teh silmarillion to get my answers? of coure 'il read the whole thign l8er fo rmy own pleasure but the thingy is du eon monday!!! ahhhhhhhhh what is hte motif for the Valar creating a perfect society????
THANKSSSSSESSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Orli17
Hey i haven't entirely read the Silmarillion bu ti have to ask one question......
The Valar were trying to create a utopian society right? What was their motif? cuz we have a project for history class about utopian societies that fialed and i decided to do teh valar seeing that melkor messed up middle earth...can anyone help me? And whcih parts should i read in teh silmarillion to get my answers? of coure 'il read the whole thign l8er fo rmy own pleasure but the thingy is du eon monday!!! ahhhhhhhhh what is hte motif for the Valar creating a perfect society????
THANKSSSSSESSSSSSSSSSSSSS

I think that the Valar (minus Melkor) wanted to just have a happy existence on Arda...which IMO is what Iluvatar created them for...to share in His happiness. Unfortunately, they could choose to follow the law of Iluvatar or go against it like Melkor did.

[Orli17]

ok i see....so its just that they wanted a happy society and world where they enjoy the things htey see adn create.......like even the awakening of hte elves and teh dwarves and all that right? so it's like plain desire that made them create what they did.......okie.....and their philosophy was to make iluvatar happy? i'm a little confused htere but htanks anways!!! i've gotta work so hard to find tha tanswer....i should read the preface..oh well!
TTFN

[Rían]

Great quotes, Maedhros! Where is that? (Vinyar Tengwar: Ósanwe-kenta)

[Artanis]

RÃ*an, Vinyar Tengwar is a journal, devoted to Tolkien's invented languages. You can read about it here
The Ósanwe-kenta, Enquiry into the Communication of Thought, was published in VT no. 39.

[MasterMothra]

I think Artanis hit the nail firmly on the head. Another example was the Valar's unwillingness to deal with Ar-Pharazon(men) when he set sail to Valinor. Instead of dealing with men they simply dropped the problem on Eru's feet.

To answer the original question, I do think the Valar shirked duty at times in their own best intrest. By turning a blind eye toward Melkor/Morgoth's misdeeds, they really undermined the perception of the Valar's integrity. They had many chances at redemption: after the raping of the Silmarils and especially during the Ar-Pharazon incident. They just never took control over the direction of Arda. Unfortunately, the Valar's choices brought an enormous amount of hardship on men and elves.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

The Valar were unsuccessful in many of their endeavors regarding Arda and its people. They did try, on various occasions, to help and save the Eldar.

This, I content does no imply the Valar "shirked their reasonability". On numerous occasions they offered assistance to the Eldar, beginning with their initial war with Melkor, which was commenced with the aim of preserving Middle Earth for the Elves. Then, when this proved beyond them, they offered the Eldar a chance to leave the tainted Hither land and come to Aman, which they had managed to preserve. Melkor was imprisoned, and the Eldar were welcomed to the bliss of Valinor.

Feanor and the Silmarils, coupled along with a released Melkor's malice, caused the flight of the Noldor FROM paradise, back to a middle earth that was still under the yoke of shadow.

The Valar initially gave them every opportunity to return, but they would not, and thus the Valar are not at fault. The Sindar also exist in middle earth, and thus suffer its perils, for they were NOT willing to go to Aman in the first place.

The Valar only come to their aid at the behest of Earendil having been, well, screwed over in their plans by the malice of Melkor, and the pride of the Noldor.

What else should the Valar have done, for those who spurned their paradise and refused their help? Should they assist these said rebels only when they start to lose?

I contend that it’s the Valar that were abandoned, and their counsel shunned.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

Oh, and on the subject of the Edain and the fall of Numenor, I still fail to see how one can blame the Valar for the failing of Men.

The Valar, seeing the sacrifice made by the fathers of men, REWARDED them with the gift of Westernesse. It gave all those loyal and true a home free from fear, and plentiful in bounty.

What the hell else did the men of the west want? Their only problem was the "gift" of Iluvatar. And their lives were extended in recompense.

It was the pride of men, fanned by the malice of Sauron that led to the invasion of Aman.

So the Valar called upon Eru to sort the men out. So what? The Valar had given the forsaken men of Middle Earth a haven of sanctuary on Arda, a place of heaven on earth for them to live in peace. Only to have the same men whom loved their compassion invade them with the purpose of annihilating them, and taking their land for their own. Talk about gratitude.

The Valar didn't "cop out" and call upon Eru for the solution, they felt the treachery of men was such that only the creator could cleanse Arda from its effects.

So once again, who owes who?

[Radagast The Brown]

I do think The Valar were shrinking thewir duties.

Let's say The Valar did convinced the elves to go to Valinor. When Melkor is back, don't they think to go and help the Sindar? Is Melkor the Sindar's job to fight against? Is it their fault, that he's free again? The answer is no.

The Noldor went to fight Morgoth, and I don't think the Valar should have stopped them. If they wanted to leave Valinor I don't think the Valar have a problem but perhaps, the Valasr should've fight Morgoth themselves, before he could get his full powers back, create dragons, etc.?

I can't find any problem with the Valar's reaction after Ar Pharazon 'attacked' them, and can't find the Men's treachery their fault.

[Maedhros]

I do think The Valar were shrinking thewir duties.

From the Converse of Manwë and Eru

There were many such fëar of Elves who had died in Middle-earth gathered in the Halls of Mandos, but it was not until the death of MÃ*riel in Aman that Manwë appealed directly to Eru for counsel. Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it

shrink: To show reluctance; hesitate: shrink from making such a sacrifice.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

But they did shrink from their duty.

[Radagast The Brown]

So Eru agrees with me that the Valar should've fight Melkor before, but doesn't agree that they should've fight him after the Noldor left Aman? That's what I understood.

Isn't shrink means to make something smaller?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Isn't shrink means to make something smaller?

It means to evade the performance of one's duty.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
It means to evade the performance of one's duty.

That's only when you shrink a duty, not 'to shrink' generally...