Were the Valar Shirking their Duty?

[Valandil]

Here's what always strikes me about "The Silmarillion": It seems like the Valar were sent to Arda to prevent Melkor from ruining it (in addition to fulfilling the creation of it). Instead, it seems like they despaired at his destruction - and set up their own little section where they would make sure and run things right - and the rest could just go to pot.

When the Elves came along, the response of the Valar was to bring them over to this sheltered land they had created - instead of preventing Melkor from corrupting the land where they were placed (and, perhaps the Elves themselves).

I never quite understood this. Melkor was greater than any single Vala... but if they took him on together, he didn't stand a chance - as they proved at the end of the First Age. Why didn't they just defeat him from the start? Or at least 'take him out' once the Firstborn came along?

Of course... then we wouldn't have a story. Were the Valar doing the 'right' thing though - what Eru would have wanted them to do? Or were they proving to be as 'fallable' in their own way as Elves and Men by not always doing the correct thing? Didn't they always have responsibility for all of Arda? And did they fail in this responsibility by allowing Melkor to go unchecked?

(In fact, along these lines, it could be argued that the rebellion of the Elves against the Valar ultimately induced them to do what they should have done to begin with.)

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Valandil

I never quite understood this. Melkor was greater than any single Vala... but if they took him on together, he didn't stand a chance - as they proved at the end of the First Age. Why didn't they just defeat him from the start? Or at least 'take him out' once the Firstborn came along?

because at the very begin Melkor still had all his power...at the end of the First Age, he had put alot of it into the Earth and given alot to Sauron, which is why he (Melkor) was weaker.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
because at the very begin Melkor still had all his power...at the end of the First Age, he had put alot of it into the Earth and given alot to Sauron, which is why he (Melkor) was weaker.

Ah... from what I've gathered, the thesis of "Morgoth's Ring"???

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Valandil
Ah... from what I've gathered, the thesis of "Morgoth's Ring"???

yeah I think that's where I got that from

[Sister Golden Hair]

From the published Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflin edition, 1977

And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterwards they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Iluvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.

[Wayfarer]

I've always thought they were. I'm more of an opinion that Feanor was right, and that the Valar foolishly kept the elves from their birthright, and in the process set the stage for most of the misery in middle earth's history. They should have blasted Melkor into the void from the get-go, and /then/ gone about remaking the world without his interference.

[Lizra]

I vote yes also. They were shirking their duty.

[Captain Stern]

I think they also felt that even Morgoth had a right to live in Arda, and that they still held out some hope that he may eventually have changed his ways, which was demostrated by their releasing of him from Mandos in the First Age.

The Valar (Manwe in particular) were shown to be grief stricken when great, promising, individuals (namely Feanor) fell to ill deeds. Morgoth's fall from grace must have been at least as painful to them, especially to Manwe since they were 'brothers'. Therefore I don't think we should discount emotional factors when determining why they did anything when it came to dealing (or not dealing in this case) with Morgoth.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Yes, it appears that they seriously failed in their duties and amde many bad strategic choices.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Yes, it appears that they seriously failed in their duties and amde many bad strategic choices.

Do I sense sarcasm??? (I don't know you well enough to know for sure either way, Lefty)

(EDIT: btw - no offense taken if it was - and hope you'll take none if it was not)

[Lefty Scaevola]

No sarcasm. Their principal charge was to make a home for the Children of Illuvatar, yep they often gave higher priority to their own abodes and comforts than to provide a minimally safe world for the children. How could their ever be a worse strategic choice than releasing Morgoth from captivity? The 2nd worse choice earlier, "and afterwards they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Iluvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar". Huh?!? How could it possibly be safer to rend the earth after the children were place in it than before? Beside them not yet being around to fall into flaming chasms, You would likely have time to repair it again before they appeared.
JRRT does start making this more sensible in HoME "Myths Trasnformed" by increasing Melkor's power relative to the Valar, so that they feared they could not defeat him, yet this do not change their charge and duty.

[Arien the Maia]

plus, not only did the Valar want to bring the Elves to Aman, they hardly ever cared about the race of Men. They are both the Children of Iluvatar and IMO should be treated equally! Who knows, if they would have looked out for Men more, perhaps Men wouldn't have fallen to Melkor's temptations in the first place.

[brownjenkins]

in the early version of lost tales there's a passage about the valar not being able to achieve the greatness they could have, or something to that account, by not taking on melkor when they could have... i believe it is mentioned in conjuction with the elves not achieveing their greatness either, for their own shortcomings... the valar of those days were much more like the emotionally fallible gods we see in greek mythology... they also seemed to be much more a part of middle earth... it was a process of learning and growing for them as much as it was for iluvatar's other children

i think jrrt tried to change this later and make them more "godly" and "above the fray"... so he had to rationalize their decisions in a new way, but the story elements lingered and he had to come up with some reason for their holding off on melkor... so he added the bit about not wanting to rend the earth again... though you almost get the feeling that they we're punishing the elves who left... waiting to help until they were at almost utter defeat... maybe they were just trying to build character

and, in the end, they did quite a bit of rending anyway

* nice new pic arien! *

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
* nice new pic arien! *

thanks! you can see the whole thing here

[Artanis]

The Valar were far from flawless. As several posters here have pointed out, they made many bad choices. Perhaps it is the word 'Gods' that mislead us to think they are without flaws. But we should remember that they were made of no 'higher' or nobler stuff than Melkor was.

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
plus, not only did the Valar want to bring the Elves to Aman, they hardly ever cared about the race of Men. They are both the Children of Iluvatar and IMO should be treated equally! Who knows, if they would have looked out for Men more, perhaps Men wouldn't have fallen to Melkor's temptations in the first place.

That one has bugged me too. The only reasonable explanation I can think of is reflected in Finrod's words to Andreth in the Athrabeth:

'Has it never entered into your thought, Andreth, that out there in ages long past ye may have put yourselves out of their care, and beyond the reach of their help? Or even that ye, the Children of Men, were not a matter that they could govern? For ye were too great. Yea, I mean this, and do not only flatter your pride: too great. Sole masters of yourselves within Arda, under the hand of the One.

Yes, Men and Elves were both Children of Ilúvatar, but they were also very different in nature. The Elves had more in common with the Valar than Men had, they were bound to Arda and its fate, whereas Men were as guests in the world and departed after their short life span. It may be that tha Valar felt they had no authority over Men, or didn't know how to govern them.

[Maedhros]

Of course... then we wouldn't have a story. Were the Valar doing the 'right' thing though - what Eru would have wanted them to do? Or were they proving to be as 'fallable' in their own way as Elves and Men by not always doing the correct thing? Didn't they always have responsibility for all of Arda? And did they fail in this responsibility by allowing Melkor to go unchecked?

This is the answer that you are looking for:
From Vinyar Tengwar: Ósanwe-kenta

If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwe and the weakness and unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwe appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him: as if a kind but unwise father were treating a wayward child who would assuredly in time perceive the error of his ways. Whereas we, looking on and knowing the outcome, see now that Melkor knew well the error of his ways, but was fixed in them by hate and pride beyond return. He could read the mind of Manwe, for the door was open; but his own mind was false and even if the door seemed open, there were doors of iron within closed for ever.
How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose. Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be honoured.

Who among the Eldar hold that the captivity of Melkor in Mandos (which was achieved by force) was either unwise or unlawful? Yet the resolve to assault Melkor, not merely to withstand him, to meet violence with wrath to the peril of Arda, was taken by Manwe only with reluctance. And consider: what good in this case did even the lawful use of force accomplish? It removed him for a while and relieved Middle-earth from the pressure of his malice, but it did not uproot his evil, for it could not do so. Unless, maybe, Melkor had indeed repented. (Note 9) But he did not repent, and in humiliation he became more obdurate: more subtle in his deceits, more cunning in his lies, crueller and more dastardly in his revenge. The weakest and most imprudent of all the actions of Manwe, as it seems to many, was the release of Melkor from captivity. From this came the greatest loss and harm: the death of the Trees, and the exile and the anguish of the Noldor. Yet through this suffering there came also, as maybe in no other way could it have come, the victory of the Elder Days: the downfall of Angband and the last overthrow of Melkor.
Who then can say with assurance that if Melkor had been held in bond less evil would have followed? Even in his diminishment the power of Melkor is beyond our calculation. Yet some ruinous outburst of his despair is not the worst that might have befallen. The release was according to the promise of Manwe. If Manwe had broken this promise for his own purposes, even though still intending "good", he would have taken a step upon the paths of Melkor. That is a perilous step. In that hour and act he would have ceased to be the vice-gerent of the One, becoming but a king who takes advantage over a rival whom he has conquered by force. Would we then have the sorrows that indeed befell; or would we have the Elder King lose his honour, and so pass, maybe, to a world rent between two proud lords striving for the throne? Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough.

And this is it.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Artanis
The Valar were far from flawless. As several posters here have pointed out, they made many bad choices. Perhaps it is the word 'Gods' that mislead us to think they are without flaws. But we should remember that they were made of no 'higher' or nobler stuff than Melkor was.
That one has bugged me too. The only reasonable explanation I can think of is reflected in Finrod's words to Andreth in the Athrabeth:Yes, Men and Elves were both Children of Ilúvatar, but they were also very different in nature. The Elves had more in common with the Valar than Men had, they were bound to Arda and its fate, whereas Men were as guests in the world and departed after their short life span. It may be that tha Valar felt they had no authority over Men, or didn't know how to govern them.

yes, I've read that in the Athrabeth too. It's one of my favorite stories and I wish it was included in the Silmarillion

I guess overall I wish Tolkien expanded more on the nature of Men so as to clear up alot of my questions about their fate but oh well

[brownjenkins]

Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies?

interestingly, even this was dealt with differently in the early tales... it is actually by using deception that the valar capture melkor the first time in the original conception... this detail was also dropped later

on mankind... you do get the feeling that they were outside the realm of the valar, so i can understand them not getting involved to some extent... and of course, in the end, they did help out mankind through the istari

[Thorin II]

Some great discussion on this topic. I especially liked the posts about the Valar not being certain if they could or should govern Men (Artanis) and about the "folly" of the Valar (Maedhros).

My response to the question is that they were not shirking their duties, but they were not very effective in their task, either. It didn't seem the Valar were really prepared to deal with any kind of discord. As much as Melkor was the mightiest Vala, the thing that really seemed to set him apart was his willingness to go against the grain. The rest of the Valar seemed to seek harmony at all costs, and they didn't have any idea how to deal with anything else (especially Melkor). For that reason, the Valar were more focused on quieting the source of discord than on really doing anything about it.

[Maedhros]

Yes, Men and Elves were both Children of Ilúvatar, but they were also very different in nature. The Elves had more in common with the Valar than Men had, they were bound to Arda and its fate, whereas Men were as guests in the world and departed after their short life span. It may be that tha Valar felt they had no authority over Men, or didn't know how to govern them.

Or it might be that, the Valar had no business dealing with Men at first because Eru was doing that.
There is the Tale of Adanel, in which there is a tradition among Men that at first, they could hear the voice of Eru but they rejected it and instead followed either Melkor or his servants.