Maedhros' torment - Page 2

afro-elf · 03-03-2003, 12:21 AM

Quote:

why didn't Maedhros say a prayer to Iluvatar or Manwe for some kind of aid? Why did it wait until Fingon did it?

Would that have violated the Oath of Feanor somehow.

to Artanis
Being slain by a friend is often part of the Warrior ethic

Artanis · 03-03-2003, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
to Artanis
Being slain by a friend is often part of the Warrior ethic

So you think this is not considered as a 'wilful death' by the Valar, and so do not imply a fault in Maedhros' spirit?

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
What I am wondering is, why didn't Maedhros say a prayer to Iluvatar or Manwe for some kind of aid?

Well, if he really was prideful, he would not ask the Valar for any aid. He had sworn an oath against their will, and was banned. Much easier then for Fingon to plea to the Valar, also because the help he asked for was not for himself.

Noahamir · 03-03-2003, 05:32 PM

I could think of two reasons why he asked to be killed rather than do it himself.

1.) The Oath - In Middle-Earth it seemed like Oaths had a strong power that could not be broken once given. They overrode the Free Will of the Taker and they were bound magically by there words beyond there control. Even if Meadros had despaired and desired to give up his spirit, his Oath forbid him on giving up his quest to regain the Silmarills and therefore breaking it. (He therefore needed Fingon, a non-oath taker to kill him.)

2.) The simplist is that Elves have to 100% want to die to give up there spirit, but there was still some small subconcious spark inside of Meadros that still wanted to live. (Otherwise Elves would be keeling over all the time when ever they had brief suicidal thoughts.)

***Earniel*** · 03-03-2003, 06:05 PM

Quote:

The simplist is that Elves have to 100% want to die to give up there spirit, but there was still some small subconcious spark inside of Meadros that still wanted to live.

A good point.

Quote:

Otherwise Elves would be keeling over all the time when ever they had brief suicidal thoughts.

LOL! Odd mental picture. Very monty python.

Ruinel · 03-03-2003, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
What I am wondering is, why didn't Maedhros say a prayer to Iluvatar or Manwe for some kind of aid? Why did it wait until Fingon did it?

He was an Exile, and he was very prideful.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 03-03-2003, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
He was an Exile, and he was very prideful.

Fingon was an Exile also. I think it's most likely because of the Oath of Feanor.

Ruinel · 03-03-2003, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Fingon was an Exile also. I think it's most likely because of the Oath of Feanor.

Why would it matter if Fingon was an Exile also?

The Oath is part of the whole pride thing I was talking about. And he is not going to ask Manwe for help when he was locked out of Valinor with his kin. That just wouldn't be his style.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 03-03-2003, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
Why would it matter if Fingon was an Exile also?

The Oath is part of the whole pride thing I was talking about. And he is not going to ask Manwe for help when he was locked out of Valinor with his kin. That just wouldn't be his style.

What I was saying is that being one of the Exiles had nothing to do with it. I believe that Maedhros was unwilling to ask the Valar for aid, because of the Oath, but the fact is, that inspite of the Oath, Manwe sent aid to Maedhros and Fingon, after Fingon's prayer. So the Valar inspite of the Oath never totally forsook the Exiled Noldor, including the sons of Feanor.

Ruinel · 03-03-2003, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
What I was saying is that being one of the Exiles had nothing to do with it. I believe that Maedhros was unwilling to ask the Valar for aid, because of the Oath, but the fact is, that inspite of the Oath, Manwe sent aid to Maedhros and Fingon, after Fingon's prayer. So the Valar inspite of the Oath never totally forsook the Exiled Noldor, including the sons of Feanor.

Oh! I see what you're saying.

Makes sense now.

But Fingon and Maedhros were different Elves. I always got the impression that Maedhros was above and beyond when it came to pride. That's why I said what I said before.

But you may feel different.

Maedhros · 03-04-2003, 01:56 AM

I have to say that I agree with most of the posts about Maedhros pride and character.
I would like to note a difference between MÃ*riel and Maedhros. MÃ*riel's grief was only a matter of her fÃ«a, while Maedhros pain was almost a thing of the hrÃ¶a, though as time passed, it affected his fÃ«a too. I just don't think that it ever ocurred to him to leave his hrÃ¶a as MÃ*riel did.
There is also the Morgoth factor, he was purposely keeping him alive, I don't know if there is a way for Morgoth to deny such a fleeing of the hrÃ¶a, but that is another possibility. Maedhros could have not given up, he gave his word, and he had to keep it to the end.

Artanis · 03-04-2003, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maedhros
I just don't think that it ever ocurred to him to leave his hrÃ¶a as MÃ*riel did.

You mean it never occurred to him before Fingon came there?

Ruinel · 03-04-2003, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maedhros
I have to say that I agree with most of the posts about Maedhros pride and character.
I would like to note a difference between MÃ*riel and Maedhros. MÃ*riel's grief was only a matter of her fÃ«a, while Maedhros pain was almost a thing of the hrÃ¶a, though as time passed, it affected his fÃ«a too. I just don't think that it ever ocurred to him to leave his hrÃ¶a as MÃ*riel did.
There is also the Morgoth factor, he was purposely keeping him alive, I don't know if there is a way for Morgoth to deny such a fleeing of the hrÃ¶a, but that is another possibility. Maedhros could have not given up, he gave his word, and he had to keep it to the end.

I think that leaving his body and therefore pain and suffering was definitly on his mind towards the end, by his own will ... no. I think that the oath, his pride and the unwillingness to allow Morgoth the pleasure of his defeat kept him from willing it so. If a friend took his life, that would be more honorable. He could keep his pride, and not give in to Morgoth. The oath would still stand without him to satisfy it, but he had brothers and kin that would take up that cause until he could be reborn (if the Silmarils still had not be recaptured by then). And surely, if Fingon had killed Maedhros that would have really pissed off Morgoth.

Maedhros · 03-04-2003, 11:13 PM

Quote:

You mean it never occurred to him before Fingon came there?

Not like that I think.

Artanis · 03-05-2003, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
And surely, if Fingon had killed Maedhros that would have really pissed off Morgoth.

That's a good point.

afro-elf · 03-05-2003, 06:27 AM

Quote:

So you think this is not considered as a 'wilful death' by the Valar, and so do not imply a fault in Maedhros' spirit

Along certain warrior lines it would be that honorable way to go. It would be see as greatness in his spirit.

Ruinel · 03-05-2003, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
Along certain warrior lines it would be that honorable way to go. It would be see as greatness in his spirit.

I see where you are going with this... yes.

BTW, what happened to your cute typing poem? I liked it.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-05-2003, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noahamir
(Otherwise Elves would be keeling over all the time when ever they had brief suicidal thoughts.)

Little children must be saying 'I don't believe in Elves'.

afro-elf · 03-06-2003, 03:36 AM

Quote:

BTW, what happened to your cute typing poem? I liked it.

A little too much levity in it. I like the somber.

Ruinel · 03-06-2003, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
A little too much levity in it. I like the somber.

So, do both. After all, you don't really think I eat cats do you? Balance is the way to harmony.

DARKastheRAIN · 02-19-2009, 07:09 PM

[QUOTE=Elanor Gamgee;198882]... the Elves could die, and did die, by their will; as for example because of great grief or bereavement, or because of the frustration of their dominant desires and purposes. This wilful death was not regarded as wicked, but it was a fault implying some defect or taint in the fea, and those who came to Mandos by this means might be refused further incarnate life. QUOTE]

I thought I remembered that that quote was rejected by Tolkien and replaced with something else... maybe I'm remembering wrong

it would also bring up the question: why would Maedhros need to jump in a fiery to pit when he killed himself in the end if he could have just willingly dropped dead?

03-04-2003, 01:56 AM	#30
Maedhros The Tall Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 578	I have to say that I agree with most of the posts about Maedhros pride and character. I would like to note a difference between MÃriel and Maedhros. MÃriel's grief was only a matter of her fÃ«a, while Maedhros pain was almost a thing of the hrÃ¶a, though as time passed, it affected his fÃ«a too. I just don't think that it ever ocurred to him to leave his hrÃ¶a as MÃriel did. There is also the Morgoth factor, he was purposely keeping him alive, I don't know if there is a way for Morgoth to deny such a fleeing of the hrÃ¶a, but that is another possibility. Maedhros could have not given up, he gave his word, and he had to keep it to the end. __________________ â€œWhat does the term american refers toâ€ asked the boy, and the wise man answered: â€œLets look at the dictionary then.â€ As an adjective* American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, â€œWhat is America then?â€, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the AÂ·merÂ·iÂ·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, â€œDoes the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?â€ The wise man replied: â€œWhat do you think?â€, and the boy answered: â€œIt is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,â€ the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, â€œAm I right?â€, and he replied: â€œBut of course.â€ The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.

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03-03-2003, 05:32 PM	#23
Noahamir Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 29	I could think of two reasons why he asked to be killed rather than do it himself. 1.) The Oath - In Middle-Earth it seemed like Oaths had a strong power that could not be broken once given. They overrode the Free Will of the Taker and they were bound magically by there words beyond there control. Even if Meadros had despaired and desired to give up his spirit, his Oath forbid him on giving up his quest to regain the Silmarills and therefore breaking it. (He therefore needed Fingon, a non-oath taker to kill him.) 2.) The simplist is that Elves have to 100% want to die to give up there spirit, but there was still some small subconcious spark inside of Meadros that still wanted to live. (Otherwise Elves would be keeling over all the time when ever they had brief suicidal thoughts.)

02-19-2009, 07:09 PM	#40
DARKastheRAIN Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 22	[QUOTE=Elanor Gamgee;198882]... the Elves could die, and did die, by their will; as for example because of great grief or bereavement, or because of the frustration of their dominant desires and purposes. This wilful death was not regarded as wicked, but it was a fault implying some defect or taint in the fea, and those who came to Mandos by this means might be refused further incarnate life. QUOTE] I thought I remembered that that quote was rejected by Tolkien and replaced with something else... maybe I'm remembering wrong it would also bring up the question: why would Maedhros need to jump in a fiery to pit when he killed himself in the end if he could have just willingly dropped dead?