Maedhros' torment

[Artanis]

I've been thinking of Maedhros lately. When Fingon arrives to rescue him from Thangorodrim, he begs twice to be slain, because he is "in anguish without hope". But we know that the Elves had the power to die by will, that is, to release their spirit from their body. Miriel once did. Why could not Maedhros do the same thing, if he really desired it? Is it only weariness and grief that justifies a wish to die, and not physical pain?

Thoughts, anyone?

[Laurus Nobilis]

That's an interesting question.

I think the death of the Elves is more like a 'death of the soul'; they probably "die", as you said, because of grief and not because of physical pain. I'm not sure it's ever stated in the books, though.

[markedel]

It depends where the source of the chapter is-the Silmarillion is not always based on the latest versions of the ME legenderium, that may explain the contradiction.

[Rían]

I wondered about Maedhros too, Artanis, and I wondered if perhaps there must be a 'receiving' of the wish to die on the Valar end of things in order for it to take place - IOW, Maedhros wished to die, and maybe 'tried' to die, but the attempt was denied.... does that make sense?

I think it was in one of my favorites, Morgoth's Ring, where it's talking about the voluntary dying - in the section about marriage customs, and how elves are naturally monogamous, and if they were raped, the victim would choose to give up their life because of the grief; do you remember that?

Aha, here it is - in the Notes after The Later Quenta Silmarillion II -

from note 5
But among all these evils there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos. Guile or trickery in this matter was scarcely possible (even if it could be thought that any Elf would purpose to use it); for the Eldar can read at once in the eyes and voice of another whether they be wed or unwed.

And it says that Elves may be slain or waste away from grief. Maedhros' suffering was more physical pain, and not grief as much, perhaps?? (altho there was certainly grief!) I don't know, but I've wondered too. But as I said, perhaps there would have to be an acceptance of the wish to die.

Good question, Artanis!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I wondered about Maedhros too, Artanis, and I wondered if perhaps there must be a 'receiving' of the wish to die on the Valar end of things in order for it to take place - IOW, Maedhros wished to die, and maybe 'tried' to die, but the attempt was denied.... does that make sense?

It makes good sense, I thought exactly the same thing. Either the Elves have this ability to die by wish, for any reason, or they must plead to the Valar, or maybe to Mandos alone, in order to get permission and to be 'recieved'. But from the quote that you give, it sounds like it is really up to each individual, to 'reject bodily life'. When I read about Miriel I also had the feeling that she did not have to ask for permission to die, though there was a problem about her staying separated from her body, because the nature of the Elves' rhöa and fëa was to be together. It was not her death that was important, but her wish not to become incarnate again.

markedel, do you have any examples from the later part of the legendarium that may explain this better?

[Elanor Gamgee]

Originally posted by Artanis
I've been thinking of Maedhros lately. When Fingon arrives to rescue him from Thangorodrim, he begs twice to be slain, because he is "in anguish without hope". But we know that the Elves had the power to die by will, that is, to release their spirit from their body. Miriel once did. Why could not Maedhros do the same thing, if he really desired it? Is it only weariness and grief that justifies a wish to die, and not physical pain?
Thoughts, anyone?

I wonder if this could help. The quote is from Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Author's Note 5 (HoME X); emphasis mine.

... the Elves could die, and did die, by their will; as for example because of great grief or bereavement, or because of the frustration of their dominant desires and purposes. This wilful death was not regarded as wicked, but it was a fault implying some defect or taint in the fea, and those who came to Mandos by this means might be refused further incarnate life.

So, I believe for Maedhros it was a great difference whether to accept death from another (as a mercy given by a friend to escape pain and torment), or whether to die by his own will (which would be fainthearted). IMHO someone as strong and proud as Maedhros would not choose "humiliating" mode of death.
As for Miriel, her death became indeed wicked since she so stubbornly refused to return to incarnate life. Actually, that was her refusal that became the cause of much doubt and grief to Finwe and Feanor, to the Valar and ultimately to almost all the Elves.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
So, I believe for Maedhros it was a great difference whether to accept death from another (as a mercy given by a friend to escape pain and torment), or whether to die by his own will (which would be fainthearted). IMHO someone as strong and proud as Maedhros would not choose "humiliating" mode of death.

I understand what you're saying, but it is not wholly satisfying. Maedhros desired to die, and I find it unnatural that the means of his death should make a difference to whether it should be considered fainthearted or not, or 'rightful' or not. If Fingon had slain him, it would be because he, Maedhros, desired it. I would agree it had made a difference if Maedhros had not begged to be slain, but he did.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

According to the 'Grey-annals' (HoME 11) Maedhros's torment lasted two Valinorean years plus 5 years of the sun-which equates to about 23-24 years of the sun -wouldn't you want to die? Maybe his hopes had been lifted by the arrival of Fingolfin's host to M-E?

[markedel]

Well we know that much of the story after the death of Turin (especially the ruin of Doriath) is based on either older writings not entirely in syn with the newer versions of the mythology, and often edited together by Christopher Tolkien. I haven't read much of (and don't own) HoME so I never saw the original text source for the capture and rescue of Maedhros. It may have been laws and customs of the eldar came after this piece, and the text itself was left unchanged (for whatever reason) and CT, either because of lack of access at the time, or in the interests of creating a coherant narrative left it, knowing the compliacation, but also knowing similar things exist throughtout the work.

He puts it himself-internally these can be treated as variations on a tradition of myths, invariably changed over time (or there are errors in translation-though this is not as internalized as in LOTR), while externally these are the result of having to stitch together multiple sources, written over different periods of time, and having to be edited for continuity and coherance. I used the external explanation to explain such a contradiction, rather then try to eliminate it.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Artanis
I understand what you're saying, but it is not wholly satisfying. Maedhros desired to die, and I find it unnatural that the means of his death should make a difference to whether it should be considered fainthearted or not, or 'rightful' or not. If Fingon had slain him, it would be because he, Maedhros, desired it. I would agree it had made a difference if Maedhros had not begged to be slain, but he did.

Perhaps he considered dying through will as giving in to Morgoth. Maedhros was a warrior, so I suppose that if he had the chance of dying by a weapon, he would prefer that above willing himself to die. If Finrod slew him Maedhros would have been 'defeated' by Finrod and not by Morgoth. I suppose that left him with more dignity.

It's also possible that Maedhros choose to endure the torment instead of escaping through death. Perhaps the thought of wiling himself to death never arose in his mind before Finrod turned up. The coming of Finrod might have been a chance of a dignified ending because he had no hope of ever being cut loose.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Perhaps he considered dying through will as giving in to Morgoth. Maedhros was a warrior, so I suppose that if he had the chance of dying by a weapon, he would prefer that above willing himself to die. If Finrod slew him Maedhros would have been 'defeated' by Finrod and not by Morgoth. I suppose that left him with more dignity.

So basicly what you and Elanor Gamgee is saying, is that it was his pride that hindered him to die on his own. Do you think then, that Maedhros' death, if he had been slain by Fingon, would not imply a defect or a taint in his fëa? Would you consider it a 'wilful death'?

I think it's unlikely that he had not thought of the possibility of dying, a long time before Fingon arrived. He had a lot of time to think, you might say But he may have rejected the idea for the reasons already stated.

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
According to the 'Grey-annals' (HoME 11) Maedhros's torment lasted two Valinorean years plus 5 years of the sun-which equates to about 23-24 years of the sun -wouldn't you want to die?

OMG, 24 years! Yes, I would definately want to die. Maedhros' death-wish is indeed understandable.

markedel, I have all of HoME, I guess I have some reading to do So, using the external view, would you consider the latest source to be most 'valid', even if it is not in line with most of what is written before? I don't remember exactly when "Laws and customs" was written, but I think it was rather late.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Perhaps he considered dying through will as giving in to Morgoth. Maedhros was a warrior, so I suppose that if he had the chance of dying by a weapon, he would prefer that above willing himself to die. If Finrod slew him Maedhros would have been 'defeated' by Finrod and not by Morgoth. I suppose that left him with more dignity.

It's also possible that Maedhros choose to endure the torment instead of escaping through death. Perhaps the thought of wiling himself to death never arose in his mind before Finrod turned up. The coming of Finrod might have been a chance of a dignified ending because he had no hope of ever being cut loose.

In many cultures (not of ME) taking your own life is considered a weakness or being selfish without the thought to consequences of your actions on others. If Maedhros was suffering physically he should have to endure it until he escaped or was rescued. I could be that Tolkien considered this also. If Maedhros was suffering from the heart (in grief) and he died of this grief, that is another story (say to follow his love to Mandos and not be separated, for example). Maedhros asking to be slain by Fingon was asking for mercy.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Artanis
So basicly what you and Elanor Gamgee is saying, is that it was his pride that hindered him to die on his own. Do you think then, that Maedhros' death, if he had been slain by Fingon, would not imply a defect or a taint in his fëa? Would you consider it a 'wilful death'?

Yes, I think in a way Maedhros was too proud to give in and take the 'easy' way out. He had already gone such a long and hard road to furfill his vow. Maedhros doesn't strike me as the type that would give in in any situation. Even when the Valar came in to conquer Morgoth at last and throw him out of the Walls of the World, Maedhros refused to relinquish the silmarils. In the end he cast himself in the fires rather than submit to the decision of the Valar. Maedhros (no offense to the poster here with the same name ) seemingly just didn't know when to quit. The stubborn fool.

I haven't gotten further than the BoLT's so I'm not entirely sure what the taint in his fëa would imply. Fëa is soul, right? Does it mean that his pride for not wanting to die on his own was unelfish?

I think it's unlikely that he had not thought of the possibility of dying, a long time before Fingon arrived. He had a lot of time to think, you might say But he may have rejected the idea for the reasons already stated.
OMG, 24 years! Yes, I would definately want to die. Maedhros' death-wish is indeed understandable.

When I said the though might never have arisen in his mind, I may have put it a bit too extreme. (That's what you get from listening and singing with music while posting, you can't focus enough on serious discussions. Bad bad Eärniel! ) Right now I'm thinking more along the lines that he thought about it but didn't consider it an viable option. 24 years is long but I wonder how an Elf would see it. I mean 24 years is longer than I walked this earth , but Elves reckon not in years but in yén (144 years I believe). Would his torment have lasted as long as it would have for us humans? I doubt it.

[Ruinel]

I got the distinct impression that Maedhros was a very willful and stubborn Elf. I think giving in to death would have hurt his pride. Like saying, Morgoth got the better of me. But asking his Fingon, his cousin and friend, for mercy was not the same thing.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Maedhros doesn't strike me as the type that would give in in any situation. Even when the Valar came in to conquer Morgoth at last and throw him out of the Walls of the World, Maedhros refused to relinquish the silmarils. In the end he cast himself in the fires rather than submit to the decision of the Valar.

Well I think his actions regarding the Silmarils were determined from the terrible oath he had sworn. He was unable to break that oath, even if he had wanted to give in. But I agree he was not the type to let himself be conquered in any way.

I haven't gotten further than the BoLT's so I'm not entirely sure what the taint in his fëa would imply. Fëa is soul, right? Does it mean that his pride for not wanting to die on his own was unelfish?

Yes, fëa is spirit, and rhöa is body. I was referring to the quote that Elanor Gamgee gave, from the notes to "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth". I'm repeating it here:

... the Elves could die, and did die, by their will; as for example because of great grief or bereavement, or because of the frustration of their dominant desires and purposes. This wilful death was not regarded as wicked, but it was a fault implying some defect or taint in the fea, and those who came to Mandos by this means might be refused further incarnate life.

The nature of the fëa and the rhöa of the Elves was to be together from birth until the world's end. That is why a wish for death, that is, a separation of the fëa and the rhöa, was considered unnatural, and caused by a taint. And that's why I think the will to die is significant here, and not the means by how it should happen.

Would his torment have lasted as long as it would have for us humans? I doubt it.

You've got a point there.

(That's what you get from listening and singing with music while posting, you can't focus enough on serious discussions. Bad bad Eärniel! )

[Rían]

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
So, I believe for Maedhros it was a great difference whether to accept death from another (as a mercy given by a friend to escape pain and torment), or whether to die by his own will (which would be fainthearted). IMHO someone as strong and proud as Maedhros would not choose "humiliating" mode of death.

That's a good point, Elanor. Your way of looking at it makes sense to me.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I got the distinct impression that Maedhros was a very willful and stubborn Elf. I think giving in to death would have hurt his pride. Like saying, Morgoth got the better of me. But asking his Fingon, his cousin and friend, for mercy was not the same thing.

But he did not know that Fingon would eventually be there so he could ask him for mercy. The reality was, no one knew where he was, and very few dared to go that close to Morgoth's dwellings anyway, and he was hung high up in an unreachable place, save by birds. What hope could he have had to be released, except by death of own will? Still he must have kept such hope, if he would prefer to be slain.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Still he must have kept such hope, if he would prefer to be slain.

You certainly got a good point. I hadn't seen it that way yet. But such a gloomy hope that must have been. Just imagine being in his position.... with the only hope you have is that someone one day can kill you. *shivers* A grisly prospect and a very cruel torment that Morgoth devised.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
But he did not know that Fingon would eventually be there so he could ask him for mercy. The reality was, no one knew where he was, and very few dared to go that close to Morgoth's dwellings anyway, and he was hung high up in an unreachable place, save by birds. What hope could he have had to be released, except by death of own will? Still he must have kept such hope, if he would prefer to be slain.

Maybe hope, or maybe he had run out of choices.

Choice #1: hang on wall by wrist until wrist falls off and I fall to death.
Choice #2: hang on wall by wrist until someone comes by on a big eagle and kills me, releasing me from this misery.
Choice #3: hang on wall by wrist until end of the world.
Choice #4: hang on wall by wrist until Morgoth decides that he's had his fun and kills me or torchures me or both.
Choice #5: humiliate myself by deliberately taking my own life, thus admitting that Morgoth got the better of me and that I wasn't stong enough in mind or body.
Choice #6: choice #2 but with a twist... what if they could save me? hmmm... nope.

[Sister Golden Hair]

The Sil says that Maedhros heard the Elves as they beat upon the gates of Angband, and he cried out for help, but his cries were drowned in the vastness of the rock. What I am wondering is, why didn't Maedhros say a prayer to Iluvatar or Manwe for some kind of aid? Why did it wait until Fingon did it?