Why did Glorfindel come back to life? - Page 2

Ñólendil · 03-18-2002, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Of course, Silmarillion was edited by Christopher, and didn't he admit somewhere (I'm not sure where) that the Glorfindel thingy was his own mistake?

No, he did not. I don't see why Tolkien's essay should be discarded. It is not even in discord with the Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion as published (which holds considerably less authority than the former). The 'Glorfindel' text is an essay which makes the "two" Glorfindels of The Fall of Gondolin and The Lord of the Rings to be the same, and Tolkien remarked that it improved the story. He wrote some time after 1968 and he never went against the decisions he made in that essay. I think it should be accepted.

"I know there is a lot of interesting info in the additional collections of Tolkien's writings, but I look rather askance at them because he didn't integrate that material into his published writings (Silmarillion aside)."

J. R. R. didn't or Christopher? If you mean the former, what material are you referring to? Where in The Hobbit, The Book of Lost Tales, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, The Road Goes Ever On or the Lord of the Rings should Tolkien have put his Glorfindel essay? Where should he have said that the "two" were one and the same? I don't understand your logic. Nothing in the Peoples of Middle-earth, in my opinion, should hold as much authority as anything published during Tolkien's life time, but that's no reason to "look askance" at them.

Quote:

Again, I don't think the re-emergence of the reincarnated Glorfindel, or whether Glorfindel of LotR is the same as the Silmarillion Glorfindel, can be definitively resolved, neither through the writings published while Ronald was still alive and re-editing, nor through the post-mortem collections of his discarded and unincorporated works.

Why do you believe this? I take the opposite view: there is a very clear, coherent essay written by Tolkien late in his life that explained the whole deal, and the man never went against this essay as far as anyone knows. As far as I'm concerned the whole issue is definitely resolved.

There is nothing in The Silmarillion or the Lord of the Rings (the latter here being much more weighty than the former) that would suggest there were two different Glorfindels. There are two texts that shed light on the subject, they are found in the Peoples of Middle-earth, and both say that they were the same Glorfindel.

Quote:

the History of Middle-Earth series because that series is more of a collection of (with exceptions) unfinished or discarded versions of what was covered in the LotR and Silmarillion (along with some other material).

This is entirely incorrect. No offense, but I don't think you've taken a close look at some of the HoMe books. Drag out the History of the Silmarillion and Peoples of Middle-earth. You'll find that many unfinished and discarded texts, and many unrelated texts found their way into the Silmarillion as published via Christopher Tolkien. The Doriath chapter was nearly completely the work of the son. You'll read Christopher beat himself up a lot about the stuff he put in The Silmarillion, a couple of times he even wonders if he should have tried it. In PoMe you'll actually find material that was omitted from the Lord of the Rings by accident. The entire primitive mythology of the Silmarillion as published was "discarded" by J. R. R. Tolkien in favor of a scientific one.

The Silmarillion is nice to read, but I think most take it way too seriously. When you really get into studying the texts you'll find that the more you know -- the less you know. "Canon" is not an easy thing to find.

bropous · 03-18-2002, 09:21 PM

"Nothing in the Peoples of Middle-earth, in my opinion, should hold as much authority as anything published during Tolkien's life time, but that's no reason to "look askance" at them."

But, nolendil, by "look askance" I meant "Nothing in the Peoples of Middle-earth, in my opinion, should hold as much authority as anything published during Tolkien's life time", just in shorthand. This is exactly what I am getting at, that the works published in his lifetime take precedence. Absolutely I do not mean his works not published post-mortem are garbage; quite the opposite. They are still Tolkien, but just don't hold the same authority. I can see now that it has been a semantic difference, which is understandable.

I agree.

But again, I consider JRR's revision process when it came to the material HE had published, and it is very likely that the essay you indicate is clarifying may very well have been discarded when he faced having it in print. He may not have, who actually knows. all I am saying is the stuff he edited and re-eidted has to be more clearly his real intent, not the stuff in notebooks or piles of papers on his desk, truly fascinating as those materials may be.

Yes. A closer look at the whole of HoME would lend better light to the issue, but sorry, it is so dry and so disjointed and so esoteric I have a real problem reading it in depth. I imagine a lot of others would find the same thing. And, I just can't get over the fact that it just wasn't put through the editing/re-editing process by JRR himself and am not totally sure he himself would call it as authoratative.

Lemme see if I've sown the seeds for another semantic miscommunication.

Good post, Nolendil. You ain't a mod for nothing.

Ñólendil · 03-18-2002, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Absolutely I do not mean his works not published post-mortem are garbage; quite the opposite. They are still Tolkien, but just don't hold the same authority. I can see now that it has been a semantic difference, which is understandable

Okay. Thanks for making that clear.

Quote:

and it is very likely that the essay you indicate is clarifying may very well have been discarded when he faced having it in print.

Well the essay was written during the last four years of Tolkien's life, I don't think he really had the chance to decide whether or not he wanted it published. The way it was written, it seems to me more like something he wrote for himself.

Quote:

And, I just can't get over the fact that it just wasn't put through the editing/re-editing process by JRR himself and am not totally sure he himself would call it as authoratative.

I'm sure he wouldn't, in the sense you mean it. The History of Middle-earth is the history of Tolkien's writings about Middle-earth, not about the world itself. It's the individual texts one has to wonder about, as far as authority goes. If The Silmarillion has more authority than it is because The Silmarillion is a story and not a study of Tolkien's stories. In that way The Silmarillion is definitely a better authority. But I will follow the Shibboleth of Fëanor rather than The Silmarillion if I want to know who Gil-Galad is descended from, because the Shibboleth is where Christopher revealed his father's final idea on the matter, admitting that Gil-Galad as son of Fingon was an ephemeral idea, rejected and replaced. [It was replaced by Gil-Galad as son of Arothir {=Orodreth}, son of Angrod].

Wulažg · 04-09-2002, 04:29 PM

If Glorfindel was reincarnated, then it gives us an interesting parallel between him and Gandalf. They both died(falling off an abyss/mountain) saving their friends from a Balrog and they both came back a bit later to help in the fight again. Just as a question, has ANYONE defeated a Balrog without dying?

bropous · 04-09-2002, 11:26 PM

"The History of Middle-earth is the history of Tolkien's writings about Middle-earth, not about the world itself."

Actually this really clears up a real misunderstanding of HoME fo me. I took it literally as a history of Middle Earth and not of the writings. Good call.

Ñólendil · 04-10-2002, 01:13 AM

Thanks bropous.

Wulazg, not that we have heard about. Fëanor, Fingon, Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Gandalf, all fought Balrogs, all died. Of course many others were killed by Balrogs, but these are the people could slew some themselves (except for Fingon whose head was cloven by Gothmog's black axe long before the latter was slain in Gondolin).

Wulažg · 04-19-2002, 04:34 PM

There's an interesting passage in LoR... "And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes:the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.
'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'
'Yes, you sas him for a moment as he is upon the other side, one of the mighty of the Firstbor. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes..."

So Glorfindel had to have at least been to the Blessed Realm, and that wouldn't have happened if he was an elf other than the original Glorfindel, since the only Eldar from the Blessed Realm were from Gondolin at that point in time. Right?

Ñólendil · 04-20-2002, 11:46 PM

There could have been another Glorfindel that never went to Middle-earth before the Third Age in exile. Except that Tolkien expressly stated it had to be the same Glorfindel because no Elf ever bore the same name of a past Elf of historical importance. It was the same Elf.

Anyway, Glorfindel in the Third Age was more powerful than Glorfindel of the First, because he had returned to live in Valinor among the unrebellious High Elves and Holy Ones, regaining the innocence of the Eldar.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 04-21-2002, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ñólendil
There could have been another Glorfindel that never went to Middle-earth before the Third Age in exile. Except that Tolkien expressly stated it had to be the same Glorfindel because no Elf ever bore the same name of a past Elf of historical importance. It was the same Elf.

Michael Martinez wrote that Tolkien said Elven names were re-used, but Glorfindel was such a striking name that it would not have been re-used, therefore, making the two Glorfindels one and the same.

Ñólendil · 04-21-2002, 01:04 PM

Tolkien said two things: one was that "Glorfindel" was too striking a name to be reused (it is not Quenya and is hardly Sindarin), and also that no Elf bore the same name of another Elf of importance anyway. Both are said in the same essay in Peoples of Middle-earth.

Willow Oran · 05-11-2002, 03:01 PM

Why is it that the only people who fought Balrogs and got resurrected were the ones whose names started with the letter G?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who got confused by Glorfindel's resurection, for a while my friends and I thought that it was a case of spontaneous reincarnation.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 05-11-2002, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Willow Oran
Why is it that the only people who fought Balrogs and got resurrected were the ones whose names started with the letter G?

That is not true. All elves could be resurrected by choice, with the exception of Feanor. Finrod was resurreted quite quickly according to Tolkien, the same as Glorfindel, because of their deeds and self-sacrifices. According to the text, "Dying, they were gathered to the Halls of Mandos from which in time they may return".

afro-elf · 05-11-2002, 11:39 PM

simply he came back to post on the moot

bropous · 05-12-2002, 11:55 AM

I think I'm pretty much convinced at this point that Glorfindel who rode Asfaloth is the same one who slew the Balrog. I think there has been plenty of back-and-forth on this issue and it seems to me the weight of evidence is on the side of the "single Glorfindel" theory.

So, the score so far, going into the second half:

Balrogs gots wings.

Glorfindel was a single Elf.

Sauron was a meanie.

Resume play.

afro-elf · 05-12-2002, 01:08 PM

nice to see ya again if only for a while

of course you can't forget the overwhelming evidence that i was arwen's nubian paramour.

Yes aragorn was a cuckold husband

afro-elf · 03-09-2003, 05:56 AM

He came back for the...

Whats some¡¡good one-line here?

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-09-2003, 09:22 AM

Quote:

All elves could be resurrected by choice, with the exception of Feanor.

And of course, Finwe.

Artanis · 03-10-2003, 03:09 AM

Finwë??

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 03-10-2003, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
And of course, Finwe.

To the best of my knowledge, Feanor was the only Elf to be refused re-embodiment.

Findegil · 03-11-2003, 01:25 PM

When Finwe died he was alowed to meet Miriel in Mandos halls. And when he told her what had befallen after her refusal of reincarnation, she repented. And thinking longer over it she felt the call of her body and disiered for the life of an incarnated. But Mandos was stern and reminded her of Indis how was still alive and the wife of Finwe even so he was dead. But Finwe offered to stay in Mandos for ever, so that Miriel could live again. To that Mandos agreed, thinking it could be a way healing. So Miriel went forth from Mandos, and Finwe stayed there for ever.

All this can be found in The History of Middle-Earth; volume 10:Morgoth's Ring.

Respectfully
Findegil

03-18-2002, 09:21 PM	#22
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	"Nothing in the Peoples of Middle-earth, in my opinion, should hold as much authority as anything published during Tolkien's life time, but that's no reason to "look askance" at them." But, nolendil, by "look askance" I meant "Nothing in the Peoples of Middle-earth, in my opinion, should hold as much authority as anything published during Tolkien's life time", just in shorthand. This is exactly what I am getting at, that the works published in his lifetime take precedence. Absolutely I do not mean his works not published post-mortem are garbage; quite the opposite. They are still Tolkien, but just don't hold the same authority. I can see now that it has been a semantic difference, which is understandable. I agree. But again, I consider JRR's revision process when it came to the material HE had published, and it is very likely that the essay you indicate is clarifying may very well have been discarded when he faced having it in print. He may not have, who actually knows. all I am saying is the stuff he edited and re-eidted has to be more clearly his real intent, not the stuff in notebooks or piles of papers on his desk, truly fascinating as those materials may be. Yes. A closer look at the whole of HoME would lend better light to the issue, but sorry, it is so dry and so disjointed and so esoteric I have a real problem reading it in depth. I imagine a lot of others would find the same thing. And, I just can't get over the fact that it just wasn't put through the editing/re-editing process by JRR himself and am not totally sure he himself would call it as authoratative. Lemme see if I've sown the seeds for another semantic miscommunication. Good post, Nolendil. You ain't a mod for nothing. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

04-09-2002, 11:26 PM	#25
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	"The History of Middle-earth is the history of Tolkien's writings about Middle-earth, not about the world itself." Actually this really clears up a real misunderstanding of HoME fo me. I took it literally as a history of Middle Earth and not of the writings. Good call. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

04-10-2002, 01:13 AM	#26
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Thanks bropous. Wulazg, not that we have heard about. Fëanor, Fingon, Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Gandalf, all fought Balrogs, all died. Of course many others were killed by Balrogs, but these are the people could slew some themselves (except for Fingon whose head was cloven by Gothmog's black axe long before the latter was slain in Gondolin). __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

04-20-2002, 11:46 PM	#28
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	There could have been another Glorfindel that never went to Middle-earth before the Third Age in exile. Except that Tolkien expressly stated it had to be the same Glorfindel because no Elf ever bore the same name of a past Elf of historical importance. It was the same Elf. Anyway, Glorfindel in the Third Age was more powerful than Glorfindel of the First, because he had returned to live in Valinor among the unrebellious High Elves and Holy Ones, regaining the innocence of the Eldar. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

04-21-2002, 01:04 PM	#30
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Tolkien said two things: one was that "Glorfindel" was too striking a name to be reused (it is not Quenya and is hardly Sindarin), and also that no Elf bore the same name of another Elf of importance anyway. Both are said in the same essay in Peoples of Middle-earth. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

04-09-2002, 04:29 PM	#24
Wulažg Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Naperville, IL Posts: 306	If Glorfindel was reincarnated, then it gives us an interesting parallel between him and Gandalf. They both died(falling off an abyss/mountain) saving their friends from a Balrog and they both came back a bit later to help in the fight again. Just as a question, has ANYONE defeated a Balrog without dying?

04-19-2002, 04:34 PM	#27
Wulažg Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Naperville, IL Posts: 306	There's an interesting passage in LoR... "And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes:the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power. 'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?' 'Yes, you sas him for a moment as he is upon the other side, one of the mighty of the Firstbor. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes..." So Glorfindel had to have at least been to the Blessed Realm, and that wouldn't have happened if he was an elf other than the original Glorfindel, since the only Eldar from the Blessed Realm were from Gondolin at that point in time. Right?

05-11-2002, 03:01 PM	#31
Willow Oran Deus Ex Machina Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,951	Why is it that the only people who fought Balrogs and got resurrected were the ones whose names started with the letter G? I'm glad I'm not the only one who got confused by Glorfindel's resurection, for a while my friends and I thought that it was a case of spontaneous reincarnation. __________________ "5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE. -Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi

05-11-2002, 11:39 PM	#33
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	simply he came back to post on the moot __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

05-12-2002, 11:55 AM	#34
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	I think I'm pretty much convinced at this point that Glorfindel who rode Asfaloth is the same one who slew the Balrog. I think there has been plenty of back-and-forth on this issue and it seems to me the weight of evidence is on the side of the "single Glorfindel" theory. So, the score so far, going into the second half: Balrogs gots wings. Glorfindel was a single Elf. Sauron was a meanie. Resume play. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

05-12-2002, 01:08 PM	#35
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	nice to see ya again if only for a while of course you can't forget the overwhelming evidence that i was arwen's nubian paramour. Yes aragorn was a cuckold husband __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-09-2003, 05:56 AM	#36
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	He came back for the... Whats some¡¡good one-line here? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-10-2003, 03:09 AM	#38
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Finwë?? __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

03-11-2003, 01:25 PM	#40
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	When Finwe died he was alowed to meet Miriel in Mandos halls. And when he told her what had befallen after her refusal of reincarnation, she repented. And thinking longer over it she felt the call of her body and disiered for the life of an incarnated. But Mandos was stern and reminded her of Indis how was still alive and the wife of Finwe even so he was dead. But Finwe offered to stay in Mandos for ever, so that Miriel could live again. To that Mandos agreed, thinking it could be a way healing. So Miriel went forth from Mandos, and Finwe stayed there for ever. All this can be found in The History of Middle-Earth; volume 10:Morgoth's Ring. Respectfully Findegil

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