Silmarillion Re-Read

[Valandil]

Not long ago I started a re-read of The Silmarillion. It's been years since I read it last.

At first, I thought maybe I'd add comments in the subforum on The Silmarillion Reading (or Research/Discussion) Project, done years ago. But... it seems like a stray comment here and there won't be of much use.

I welcome others who re-read the Sil to add their own comments or note progress - and certainly everyone else is welcome to chime in.

To date I've read: Ainulindale, Valaquenta, the first two chapters of The Silmarillion and started the third. Was just away for an extended weekend and didn't bring it, so I'm getting back to it now after not reading for a week or so.

[Valandil]

I'm picking up a lot of details I had forgotten.

Also - forgot how short some of the early chapters are.

[Valandil]

Had a couple trips that kept me away from it - and still reading slowly in odd moments. But comments here on two things that happen really fast:

1. After Morgoth returns to Middle Earth with the silmarils - he very quickly re-builds Angband, gathers the Orcs, and sends them off in two large detachments to attack Beleriand. All this before the Noldor begin to arrive! It seems awfully quick - especially with how slowly everything else seems to take in these ancient days.

2. I took note of this my first time reading the book - but Feanor dies RIGHT AWAY, after leading the Noldor from Aman and into Middle Earth. It seems so strange that he's gone so soon. And yet - all that he did (and how he did it) has such an influence on events throughout the rest of the First Age.

[AndMorgothCame.]

havent logged in for a longggg time.

I agree with you about the early chapters in the book. They are so full of imagery and info that they seem much more expansive in memory. Thats the bittersweet thing about that book; however in-depth and wonderful, each chapter could be its own novel. I want more about Feanor, Thingol and the Nauglamir, more about Fingolfin, Beren and Luthien. Even with all the Lost and Unfinished tales, I still want to know more.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

1. After Morgoth returns to Middle Earth with the silmarils - he very quickly re-builds Angband, gathers the Orcs, and sends them off in two large detachments to attack Beleriand. All this before the Noldor begin to arrive! It seems awfully quick - especially with how slowly everything else seems to take in these ancient days.

I suppose this is mostly because so little is told of the time it took for the Noldor to cross the ocean. Even Fëanor who sailed ought to have been underway for weeks if not months. And Morgoth is at this point still fairly powerful.

[Valandil]

I finished "The Silmarillion" proper the other day, and have started "Akallabeth"

Thoughts / Observations:

I was often reading for just a few minutes each day - maybe 2-3 pages at a time. I picked that up substantially the closer I got to the end. Especially noticed when reading about Turin.

Turin's story is just so, SO tragic. It seems like everyone he met, was connected to, was a rival or foe - all die in very sad, tragic circumstances. He goes through so many different living situations, in so many places, with so many people, under so many names. His story keeps making you think: No, no, no... don't do THAT! But he keeps doing it anyway.

And yet - he is SO fearless. He is the first dragon-slayer, and slays the first dragon.

In past times, I had a harder time keeping Feanor's sons straight. A bit surprising now to find that Maedhros - who early in the story seems the most sympathetic figure of the seven brothers - is the one who clings most strongly to the Oath at the end.

I'll read the other sections in the book, and maybe move on back to Unfinished Tales - but having read this makes me want to re-read "Children of Hurin" again too - and "Athrabeth..."

Interesting that at the very end - the remnants of the Edain join the forces of Valinor in the War of Wrath on Morgoth and his Armies - while the remnants of the Elves of Beleriand, whether Noldor or Sindar, do not.

That's all I got for right now...

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by AndMorgothCame.

havent logged in for a longggg time.

I agree with you about the early chapters in the book. They are so full of imagery and info that they seem much more expansive in memory. Thats the bittersweet thing about that book; however in-depth and wonderful, each chapter could be its own novel. I want more about Feanor, Thingol and the Nauglamir, more about Fingolfin, Beren and Luthien. Even with all the Lost and Unfinished tales, I still want to know more.

Is there a "Beren and Luthien" book just out? Or about to come out?

[Valandil]

A couple more observations from "The Silmarillion" proper, as I get close to wrapping up "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" (I had forgotten how short the last two essays in the book are):

Much detail, which I thought I knew about the stories, was missing. Just yesterday I picked up "Unfinished Tales" - and saw that it contained more of those details than I remembered. I also remember how the story of Turin gets a little confusing - since we have three versions; Silmarillion's account, UT's "Narn I Hin Hurin" and the separate work, "Children of Hurin" - also, from a glance I see that the part of Tuor's story where he meets the two Elves who guide him toward Nevrast is entirely in UT.

Throughout the Silmarillion account, maybe even more toward the ending, we keep getting the sense that - strive as they might - that ultimately the only hope of the Elves lies in the West. Christopher Tolkien has written about how his father became more concerned with the spiritual later in life - and so I see this aspect of The Silmarillion being reflective of what we hold as Christians. We strive as we can to seek what is good and right - but ultimately, it will be God who sets things to right.

[Valandil]

BTW - having wrapped up the other essays in The Silmarillion, I read "Athrabeth..." (but not the notes), and have started in on Unfinished Tales.

[Valandil]

Sometimes... it seems like the time between the rebellion of the Noldor and the End of the First Age should have been some thousands of years, instead of several hundred years. What do you think?

[Earniel]

Well, with Elves, you never know. For them millennia may well be about the same as centuries, and especially in the First Age things seem to go on forever.

Which brings me to the next part.

How on (Middle-) earth did they keep track of time for anything before the Sun rose? Sure, immortal beings don't need to watch time as much as mortal beings, but surely they needed something to know when to sow or when to expect the fishing ship to return? How did Cirdan knowfor instance when to deliver Thingol's yearly tribute? How do you track time when there's nothing to track it by?

Frankly, it has been bugging me.

I am planning a Silmarillion re-read soon, not in the least because after years I've finally started writing for sheer fun again and the first thing I've started is a First-Age-fanfic so I need the research anyway.

[Varnafindë]

I was about to mention the difference between years of the Trees and years of the Sun - the former was about 144 times as long as the latter. Not that I really know what kind of cycle the Trees had other than their daily cycle.

But this only worked in Valinor, and it doesn't solve Middle-earths time keeping problems ...
Could there be some kind of pattern in the stars?

[Galin]

I realize some folks don't like the idea, but even Tolkien had problems with the conception of a Middle-earth without a Sun.

In my opinion he solved this by characterizing the Silmarillion as a mostly Mannish text, though influenced by Elves. The Sun existed before the Elves awoke (see the 1950s Elvish Fairy-tale mixed with counting lore, The Awakening of the Quendi, The War of the Jewels) but in Mannish mythology, the Sun only arose when Men awoke, which gets mixed in with the Elvish tales of the Two Trees.

The Silmarillion constructed by Christopher Tolkien does not include any framing device of course, but CJRT ultimately regretted this. In his defense, no one really knows how explicit Tolkien's "finished" legendarium was going to be concerning the multi-perspective approach...

... I think it would have been drawn by a peppering of notations "from the wise" coupled with details from more purely Elvish texts. I don't think there was going to be a contrasting "more Elvish" Quenta Silmarillion for example, but I do think two falls of Numenor (a Mannish account and a mixed account, Elvish and Mannish) were going to exist, solving Tolkien's other notable problem with flat versus round world conceptions.

I think Earniel's reaction to a Sunless Middle-earth is exactly what Tolkien was concerned about here, and his solution, in my opinion, was to retain the "old" mythology for its beauty, but give an option for any minds who would be bugged by such questions.

Incidentally the Mannish account of the Fall of Numenor, The Drowning of Anadune, contains, I think, a good example of how to slip in the Western Elvish perspective: in this account, noting that it's not hammered into the text all that much really, the Elves of the West teach the Numenoreans that the world is round before the fall, but many Men wouldn't accept this, therefore the myth arose among them that the World was made round after the fall.

I mean, what else could have cause so much destruction

Also, I agree that JRRT appears to have desired to alter the Valian Year to 144 Sun Years, however I'm not sure that he went over the Annals of Aman in detail to see if everything would "work well enough" if one simply changed the former, much lower number (roughly 10 years), with respect to the Rebellion of the Noldor, for example.

A change from 10 to 144 is a notable lengthening of time! I'm not saying Tolkien rejected 144 itself (which incidentally agrees with the Elvish Long Year of the Appendices), again I'm just noting that I'm not sure he really plugged it into every area of the Annals of Aman as it still stood, originally written with "roughly 10" in mind.

I think the Tale of Years (First Age) was going to replace the Annals of Aman and Grey Annals (of Beleriand) too, just to note it here.

Or something

[Valandil]

That's all VERY interesting Galin. Is it HOME-based, or do you get that from other sources? I've only scratched the surface of HOME myself.

[Galin]

Yep, muchly The History of Middle-Earth based.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Could there be some kind of pattern in the stars?

With our Earth turning our vision of the nightsky keeps changing throughout the year, so yeah, I suppose the Elves very well could be using some more or less yearly cycle bases solely on the stars. Maybe the new year started everytime when Varda's Crown was in zenith above Menegroth or something...

No wonder the Elves loved the stars as much, clearly they'd go all kinds of spare without them.

But then...I start pondering other things. With no Sun, no seasons, no migrations, no harvests. Most of Yavanna's creatures are supposed to be still napping until the Sun rises. What were the Sindar even eating in the meantime? Manna? Or if all the pre-sun-plants bore fruits and seeds at all times long before the advent of seasons, didn't all Elves go really, really hungry when the Sun rose and seasons kicked in? That must have been rough.

The things one never realised until one is writing fanfic... Man I really got to start that re-read.

Originally Posted by Galin

In my opinion he solved this by characterizing the Silmarillion as a mostly Mannish text, though influenced by Elves. The Sun existed before the Elves awoke (see the 1950s Elvish Fairy-tale mixed with counting lore, The Awakening of the Quendi, The War of the Jewels) but in Mannish mythology, the Sun only arose when Men awoke, which gets mixed in with the Elvish tales of the Two Trees.

It's been a while since I've delved in HoME (and the memory is usually a mess anyway) so I don't remember this theory. But I like it. If it doesn't fit, blame it on the egocentric Mannish scribes, they must have gotten it wrong some generations down the line anyway! A good myth doesn't always need to be concerned with facts...

[Galin]

To be clear, some (at least seem to) argue that Tolkien abandoned statements like the following.

'It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair. (Men are really only interested in Men and in Men's ideas and visions.) The High Eldar living and being tutored by the demiurgic beings must have known, or at least their writers and loremasters must have known, the 'truth' (according to their measure of understanding). What we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centered upon actors, such as Fëanor) handed on by Men in Númenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back - from the first association of Dúnedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar in Beleriand - blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas.'

Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed

I think (my theory) is that he only abandoned (in a sense) the new texts that resulted from such thinking, meaning, I think he realized he didn't need to write a new Quenta Silmarillion that reflected the specific story ideas also found in Myths Transformed.


There are other late characterizations of the Silmarillion being largely Mannish in perspective (see below the line of sleep if interested), and for me it begs the question why do this, if not, at least in part, to speak to concerns that had cropped up before (Tolkien was thinking about Round Word Mythology before The Lord of the Rings was published).

Some also argue that this doesn't fit with the Bilbo tradition, as there were living Elves in Imladris to "correct" any somewhat garbled mannish accounts. I argue that that would be like someone given the task of faithfully translating some very old work of art in the Primary World, and "correcting it". Not the translator's job. Or it need not be so.

Anyway I don't want to derail this thread (ahem, more than I have and am right now) with my theories, but it cheers me to read your commentary about "facts" and myth. While Tolkien was concerned about some big issues here (Sun and Moon, Shape of Earth, for examples) he did not want to tinker away at everything with science or facts.

The "star imagines" of the Dome of Varda, for example, were, in my opinion, a beautiful addition to the more Elvish account of the early world, even if such a text (a completed, more Elvish Silmarillion) would never really be needed as part of a multi-perspective legendarium.

In my opinion!

Beware "the line of sleep" below. You have been warned

__________________________________

Although in any larger discussion of transmission the mariner Elfwine would hardly be left out, here the focus is more on the role of Numenor and JRRT's statements concerning The Silmarillion.

For instance, here's a hint of a Numenorean transmission dating from the early 1950s, in the preamble to a version of Annals of Aman (for a theoried date, see Myths Transformed Text I, note 3, Morgoth's Ring):

'Here begin the 'Annals of Aman'. Rumil made them in the Elder Days, and they were held in memory by the Exiles. Those parts which we learned and remembered were thus set down in Numenor before the Shadow fell upon it.'

Note 2, Author's notes on the Commentary, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth (Morgoth's Ring):

'Physically Arda was what we should call the Solar System. Presumably the Eldar could have had as much and as accurate information concerning this, its structure, origin, and its relation to the rest of Ea as they could comprehend. Probably those who were interested did acquire this knowledge. Not all the Eldar were interested in everything; most of them concentrated their attention on (or as they said 'were in love with') the Earth.'

'The traditions here referred to have come down from the Eldar of the First Age, through Elves who never were directly acquainted with the Valar, and through Men who received 'lore' from the Elves, but who had myths and cosmogonic legends, and astronomical guess of their own. There is however, nothing in them that seriously conflicts with present human notions of the Solar System, and its size and position relative to the Universe. It must be remembered, however, that it does not necessarily follow that 'True Information' concerning Arda (such as the ancient Eldar might have received from the Valar) must agree with Men's present theories.'

Or note 7 -- in part concerning the Prophecy of Mandos (the conclusion of Quenta Silmarillion from The Lost Road And Other Writings):

'The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin; it is clearly made by Men, though men acquainted with Elvish tradition. All Elvish traditions are presented as 'histories', or as accounts of what once was.'

On a slip Tolkien wrote:

'The cosmogonic myths are Numenorean, blending Elven-lore with human myth and imagination. A note should say that the Wise of Numenor recorded that the making of stars was not so, nor of Sun and Moon. For Sun and stars were all older than Arda. But the placing of Arda amidst stars and under the [?guard] of the Sun was due to Manwe and Varda before the assault of Melkor.'

Also, an interesting change as well, to Quenta Silmarillion (the LQ2 text):

'Of their lives was made the Lay of Leithian, Release from Bondage, which is the longest save one of the songs of [the Noldor >] Númenor concerning the world of old;...'

For the revised edition of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien noted (Prologue) that Bilbo had used sources at Rivendell, living and written, to produce his 'Translations from the Elvish', being 'almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days.' And JRRT had published, concerning a poem:

'No. 14 also depends on the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Numenorean, concerning the Heroic days at the end of the First Age; it seems to contain echoes of the Numenorean tale of Turin and Mim the Dwarf. '

1962, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, Preface

1968 (Shibboleth of Feanor) Note 17:

'As is seen in the Silmarillion. This is not an Eldarin title or work. It is a compilation, pobably made in Numenor, which includes (in prose) the four great tales or lays of the heores of the Atani, of which 'The Children of Hurin' was probably composed already in Beleriand in the First Age, but necessarily is preceded by an account of Feanor and his making of the Silmarils. All however are 'Mannish' works.'

In a letter Tolkien explained (after mentioning certain mortals who were allowed to sail to Eressea, and the notion of the Straight Road):

'This general idea lies behind the events of The Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion, but it is not put forward as geologically or astronomically 'true'; except that some special physical catastrophe is supposed to lie behind the legends and marked the first stage in the succession of Men to domnion of the world. But the legends are mainly of 'Mannish' origin blended with those of the Sindar (Grey-elves) and others who had not left Middle-earth.'

JRRT, 1971 letter to Roger Green

This is interesting, since we have legends from Elves 'who had not left Middle-earth'. Although we must consider Galadriel, for example.

Possibly as late as 1972, Last Writings Note 17:

'Here he wrote that the idea [the idea being that Elvish reincarnation might be achieved by rebirth as a child] '... must be abandoned, or at least noted as a false notion, e.g. probably of Mannish origin, since nearly all the matter of The Silmarillion is contained in myths and legends that have passed through Men's hands and minds, and are (in many points) plainly influenced by contact and confusion with the myths, theories, and legends of Men.'

And Tolkien made the following revision to The Hobbit regarding the issue of the Sun And Moon, for example...

"... before they came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight before the raising of the Sun and Moon; and afterwards they wandered in the great forests that grew beneath the sunrise. They loved best the edges of the woods."

From 'Flies and Spiders', The Hobbit 1937, revised to...

'... before some came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost. They dwelt most often by the edges of the wood.'

That one's really interesting I think, especially considering that it was published by JRRT.