Girdle of Melian discussion

[Lefty Scaevola]

Girdle of Melian

1. What is it/how does it work?

2. Would it have stopped powerful beings of similar or greater stature than Melian? We have no text suggesting that Morgoth's greater commanders of servant tried to penetrate it or lead froces through it.

3. How did Beren get though it, was their something other than the suggestion of "fate" that led him through it? And, how did Carcharoth penetrated it? Did Beren and Carcharoth have something in common?

[Lefty Scaevola]

On #2. I have serious doubts that it would have stopped a Balrog or other maiar, or a dragon. And I suspect such beings, or the better "singers" (sorcerors) among then could have led an army through. Melain is a GARDENING maia, not a creature of dominating power, heck, she was even unable to stop her elven husband from being a vicious jerk at times. How the heck could her power stop Gothmog Lord of Balrogs or Glaurung Father of Dragons, or Gorthaur the Cruel? Morgoth must have have some stategic or logistgcal reason for not squashing Doriath after the Battle of Un-Numbered Tears, perhaps anticipating the damage the Oath of Feaonor would continue the wreak upon Eldarin relations becasue of the Silmaril in Doriath.

[Draken]

I think it cast a magical mazy mist (with +1 Alliteration Bonus!) around Doriath that would befuddle anyone trying to enter unless they were more powerful than Melian. I'm not sure what the hierarchy for Maia is, but I'm not convinced that a Balrog trumps Melian necessarily. Besides, said Balrog would then find itself alone on the other side with a rather irked nation of elves to deal with.

But the fact that Beren got through indicates it's not just about rank - I think the phrase used was that his "fate" was stronger than Melian's. Whatever THAT may mean.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I have a different view of why Beren and Carcharoth got through it. Both them were arlready temporarily crazed, and thus the confusing effect of the girdle was lost upon them.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I don't know why I am standing over here talking to myself.
I think I will go stand over THERE and talk to myself.

[Willow Oran]

I'd think twice before underestimating Melian's power. The first description of her in the Sil is as follows

and among all [Lorien/Irmo's] people there were none more beautiful than Melian, nor more wise, nor more skilled in songs of enchantment.

Also worth note is that she is described as being akin to Yavanna.

In all likelihood then, Melian was of equal or higher rank and skill to Sauron when he was still Aulendil and uncorrupted.

Since at this point that corruption had not yet significantly degraded his power or skill, the question is whether or not the passive, misdirectional defenses implied by the maze-like descriptions of the Girdle could be 'brute-forced' by a sufficiently powerful opponent.

Personally, I suspect not - so long as Melian was present in the kingdom and her mind was actively reinforcing those defenses - and my suspicion is supported by the fact that just as Morgoth never managed to invade Doriath, Sauron never managed to take Lothlorien, the eventual home of Melian's former student and Thingol's nephew.

Neither realm relied on enchantment for physical protection - both had elves acting as border guards, soldiers, etc. for that, but the enchantments greatly lessened the danger of those elves needing to fight an overwhelming invasion because you can't invade a place you can't find the pathway in, and both the Girdle of Melian and any copycat enchantments ensured that the kingdoms within them were very hard to find your way into, regardless of whether or not you knew the location.

Regarding the two exceptions:

Beren's entry into Doriath is described as strongly fated, and as something Melian had foreseen, the implication being that she allowed him to find his way in.

Carcaroth most certainly did not have that going for him - rabid werewolves are generally not welcome even if they are fated after all - but he had recently swallowed a Silmaril, which seems to have special guidance properties inherent in its light, since Earendil and Elwing later use it to find their way through the even stronger maze of enchantments surrounding Valinor.

[Lefty Scaevola]

With whatever strength she had to put inot the girdle, it still, as you note, required armies to defend it against some Orcs and other minon level enemies fitlering through it. This does not lend confidence that the more powerful maiar would be stopped at all. We are given no reason in the text why Morgoth never sent a major army under a powerfull leader to attack Doriath, or harrassing forces. We do not know if he was somehow deterred or whether this was some Byzantine policy, like maintaing the obstacle in the middle to inhibit communication and cooperation between the two wings of the Noldor kingdoms.

[Willow Oran]

We are given no reason in the text why Morgoth never sent a major army under a powerfull leader to attack Doriath, or harrassing forces.

After digging through the most snooze worthy chapter of the Silmarillion (Of Beleriand and its Realms) and marking out the borders of Melian's Girdle on the accompanying map, I've discovered a decent argument for why Morgoth couldn't have swept in and overwhelmed Doriath's defenses!

There were mountains in the way. A range full of nasty, haunted mountains and Ungoliant-spawn filled valleys which only Beren was ever desperate enough to cross bordered Doriath directly to the north. Incidentally, the only direct mention of border guards fighting things in defense of Doriath is Beleg and Turin battling on the north marches - guerilla warfare on monster spiders directly on the outer edge of the Girdle?

Every other part of Doriath is bordered by a realm of the Noldor, and even the Sons of Feanor never attacked it until after Thingol was dead and Melian departed.

To sum up: The Girdle of Melian was almost certainly a misdirection style magical defense capable of keeping out all lesser enemies such as giant spiders, orcs, and hostile elves/men/dwarves, though on the northern edge the monsters of Nan Dungotheb were close enough to justify the additional physical defenses.

Morgoth and Sauron probably could have challenged or overwhelmed Melian's power. However, while the Girdle was still in place, they were busy with those pesky Noldor, and even Morgoth knows to be wary of Ungoliant and spawn. By the time those distractions were dealt, Melian would have already departed and Doriath fallen to the second Kinslaying.

So mountains, spiders, aggressive Noldor, and timing have deprived us of the Melian vs. Sauron/Morgoth showdown.

Logically, I think I agree with you that Melian's enchantments would have had a hard time holding up against the full force of Morgoth's will had he attacked directly.

Yet from the Lay of Leithian Canto 2 we've got this bit:

In later days when Morgoth first,
fleeing the Gods, their bondage burst,
and on the mortal lands set feet,
and in the north his mighty seat
founded and fortified, and all
the newborn race of Men were thrall
unto his power, and Elf and Gnome
his slaves or wandered without home,
or scattered fastnesses walled with fear
upraised upon his borders drear,
and each one fell, yet reigned there still
in Doriath beyond his will
Thingol and deathless Melian,
whose magic yet no evil can
that cometh from without surpass.

which rather indicates that Tolkien decided Melian's power level dramatically rather than logically...

[Calandil]

The problem with this explanation is that the political geography in "Of Beleriand and its Realms" is that of the Siege of Angband, and it no longer applies after 455; by the end of 457, the Orcs had "[come] down Sirion in the west and Celon in the east, and ... encompassed Doriath" (p. 156). Although, in the same year, the Haladin had stopped the Orcs from crossing the Teiglin (p. 157), Morgoth continued to hold most of East Beleriand, and his only major threat (Hithlum) had been severely weakened in 462, when Morgoth made a major assault on Hithlum and breached the Ered Wethrin (p. 160); had the Falathrim not "sailed in great strength up the Firth of Drengist", Hithlum would have been conquered. I see no reason why Morgoth could not have sent an army powerful enough to overcome Melian (if he had such an army) through the Gap of Maglor into Himlad, from there following the road west to Iant Iaur and turning south into Doriath.

[Valandil]

Calandil - thanks for reviving this discussion!

I see the "Girdle of Melian" as some combination of mists and plants - maybe more plants - that would inhibit entry by non-Elves into Doriath. Similar to how the Old Forest "guided" travelers where it willed. I think it had more effectiveness against lone travelers, rather than armies or powerful beings. As pointed out above - Doriath was further protected by mountains and spiders to the north, and by Noldorin kingdoms otherwise. And Elven guards may have completed the protection.

I don't think that Beren's fate was greater than Melian's power - but I think his fate was interwoven with hers, and with Doriath, so that he was able to eventually wander on in.

As for the poem cited above, regarding the power of Melian... perhaps more poetic license than sober assessment?

Makes me think also of whatever barriers were set between Beleriand and Valinor - in function if not in form.

I think I see it much the same as several others here... though it's hard to draw a final conclusion.

[Valandil]

Anyway... been too long. About time for me to go back and read The Silmarillion once more.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I don't think that Beren's fate was greater than Melian's power - but I think his fate was interwoven with hers, and with Doriath, so that he was able to eventually wander on in.

It's also possible that the Girdle, however it functioned, didn't regard Beren as a threat at that point. He was alone, carrying a ring of an Elf-Lord at the time, and making friends with the beasts and birds. That ought to count for something.

[Valandil]

Had forgotten this until just re-reading (), but hit the part about the different "gifts" Iluvatar gave to Men. That they operate outside the Music of the Ainur, and are thus not bound to its fate.

Did this in any way give Beren a greater chance to break through the Girdle? Although it's hardly surprising if other Men were kept from doing so...

[Valandil]

Forgot until hitting this passage in my current re-read that Melian herself speaks to this point.

Thingol, hearing about the coming of men, and that some are taking service with the Noldor, says; "Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts, not even those of the house of Beor who serve Finrod the beloved."

Melian keeps quiet, but later says to Galadriel; "Now the world runs on swiftly to great tidings. And one of Men, even of Beor's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed."

[Calandil]

Below is a list of quotes from the Silmarillion that seem to relate to this subject. They have been categorized into two groups of quotes: the first directly reference the Girdle of Melian and the second reference a similar type of mechanism or provide further insight into this mechanism. My remarks on the quotes are at the end.

Quotes Directly Relating to the Girdle of Melian [A]

[A1] "Therefore he withdrew all his people that his summons could reach within the fastness of Neldoreth and Region, and Melian put forth her power and fenced all that dominion round about with an unseen wall of shadow and bewilderment: the Girdle of Melian, that none thereafter could pass against her will or the will of King Thingol, unless one should come with a power greater than that of Melian the Maia." (p. 97; compare quotes B1 and B4)

[A2] "Between Mindeb and the upper waters of Esgalduin lay the no-land of Nan Dungortheb; and that region was filled with fear, for upon its one side the power of Melian fenced the north march of Doriath, but upon the other side the sheer precipices of Ered Gorgoroth, Mountains of Terror, fell down from high Dorthonion. ... there still, when she [Ungoliant] had passed away, her foul offspring wove their evil nets; and the thin waters that spilled from Ered Gorgoroth were defiled, and perilous to drink, for the hearts of those that tasted them were filled with shadows of madness and despair." (p. 121)

[A3] "Southward lay the guarded woods of Doriath, abode of Thingol the Hidden King, into whose realm none passed save by his will." (p. 121; compare quote A1)

[A4] "Nothing hindered him [Carcharoth], and the might of Melian upon the borders of the land stayed him not; for fate drove him, and the power of the Silmaril that he bore to his torment." (p. 184; compare quote B8)

[A5] "Who knows now the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who had been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, a dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, and perceiving more of the deeds and purposes of his enemies than even the wisest of them feared, save only Melian the Queen? To her often the thought of Morgoth reached out, and there was foiled." (p. 205; compare quote B3)

[A6] "For if the Girdle of Melian be broken, then last hope is ended." (p. 216; compare quote B4)

Quotes for Comparison [B]

[B1] "And in that time also ..., the Enchanted Isles were set, and all the seas about them were filled with shadows and bewilderment. And these isles were strung as a net in the Shadowy Seas from the north to the south, before Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, is reached by one sailing west. Hardly might any vessel pass between them, for in the dangerous sounds the waves sighed for ever upon dark rocks shrouded in mist. And in the twilight a great weariness came upon mariners and a loathing of the sea; but all that ever set foot upon the islands were there entrapped, and slept until the Change of the World.... and of the many messengers that in after days sailed into the West none came ever into Valinor--save one only: the mightiest mariner of song." (p. 102; compare quote B3)

[B2] "Indeed Doriath alone would be his realm this day, but for the coming of the Noldor." (p. 112)

[B3] "'... by no vision or thought can I perceive anything that passed or passes in the West: a shadow lies over all the land of Aman, and reaches far out over the sea.'" (p. 127)

[B4] "'Not to our aid did they [the Noldor] come (save by chance); for those that remain in Middle-earth the Valar will leave to their own devices, until their uttermost need.'" (p. 127; compare quote A6)

[B5] "... as they drew near to the evil region of Nan Dungortheb, the riders became enmeshed in shadows, and Aredhel strayed from her companions and was lost." (p. 132)

[B6] "Very fair she [Aredhel] seemed to him [Eöl], and he desired her; and he set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out, but drew ever nearer to his dwelling in the depths of the wood." (p. 133)

[B7] "Now Morgoth's power overshadowed the Northlands; but Barahir would not flee from Dorthonion, and remained contesting the land foot by foot with his enemies. Then ... all the forest of the northward slopes of that land was turned little by little into a region of such dread and dark enchantment that even the Orcs would not enter it unless need drove them, and it was called Deldúwath, and Taur-nu-Fuin, The Forest under Nightshade. The trees that grew there after the burning were black and grim, and their roots were tangled, groping in the dark like claws; and those who strayed among them became lost and blind, and were strangled and pursued to madness by phantoms of terror." (pp. 154-155)

[B8] "Yet Eärendil ... stood now most often at the prow of Vingilot, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow; and ever its light grew greater as they drew into the West. And the wise have said that it was by reason of the power of that holy jewel that they came in time to waters that no vessels save those of the Teleri have ever known; and they came to the Enchanted Isles and passed their enchantment; and they came into the Shadowy Seas and passed their shadows; and they looked upon Tol Eressëa the Lonely Isle, but tarried not; and at the last they cast anchor in the Bay of Eldamar ..." (pp. 247-248)

It is interesting that almost all of these mechanisms seem to involve "shadows". Further, it seems that, although quote A1 states that the Girdle of Melian could not be breached "unless one should come with a power greater than that of Melian the Maia", and would thus be immune to attacks from large armies that did not have any particular member more powerful than Melian (as also indicated by quotes B2 and B4), a Silmaril could reverse the effects of the Girdle (quote A4) and other such mechanisms (quote B8). The "shadow" mentioned in quote B3 might be related to the Hiding of Valinor and to the failure of Morgoth to grasp Melian's purposes (quote A5), which might in turn be related to the Girdle of Melian; if so, the mental aspect of such barriers as exhibited in these quotes would arguably be a more important aspect of the Girdle of Melian and the Hiding of Valinor than the mere blockage of physical entry that they are more commonly associated with. The main problem left with this characterization of the Girdle of Melian is that Morgoth would seem to have easily been able to devastate Doriath by sending a dragon-pulled cart containing a host that included some of his mightiest servants into Doriath and giving the Dragon a Silmaril, which would overcome the effects of the Girdle. Unless Morgoth wanted to keep the Silmarils so much that he would forgo the takeover of Doriath for them, could not get a dragon to pull a cart, or did not know about this property of the Silmarils, all of which seem unlikely to me, I cannot see any good reason for Morgoth not to have done so.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Calandil

It is interesting that almost all of these mechanisms seem to involve "shadows". Further, it seems that, although quote A1 states that the Girdle of Melian could not be breached "unless one should come with a power greater than that of Melian the Maia", and would thus be immune to attacks from large armies that did not have any particular member more powerful than Melian (as also indicated by quotes B2 and B4), a Silmaril could reverse the effects of the Girdle (quote A4) and other such mechanisms (quote B8). The "shadow" mentioned in quote B3 might be related to the Hiding of Valinor and to the failure of Morgoth to grasp Melian's purposes (quote A5), which might in turn be related to the Girdle of Melian; if so, the mental aspect of such barriers as exhibited in these quotes would arguably be a more important aspect of the Girdle of Melian and the Hiding of Valinor than the mere blockage of physical entry that they are more commonly associated with. The main problem left with this characterization of the Girdle of Melian is that Morgoth would seem to have easily been able to devastate Doriath by sending a dragon-pulled cart containing a host that included some of his mightiest servants into Doriath and giving the Dragon a Silmaril, which would overcome the effects of the Girdle. Unless Morgoth wanted to keep the Silmarils so much that he would forgo the takeover of Doriath for them, could not get a dragon to pull a cart, or did not know about this property of the Silmarils, all of which seem unlikely to me, I cannot see any good reason for Morgoth not to have done so.

I think giving a Silmaril to a Dragon may have had too many uncertain consequences, some which could perhaps even be fatal for Morgoth. For starters there is no telling what Dragonfire could do to a Silmaril. Dragonfire was one of the only things strong enough to destroy Rings of Power. While the Silmarils were likely a different class of craft alltogether but I can understand Morgoth not wanting to sacrifice a Silmaril as way of experiment!

Secondly, when Charcharoth swallowed the Silmaril alongside Beren's hand, he nigh became an unstoppable force but also mad with pain and rage, an unaimed projectile - except perhaps by Fate. A Dragon in this state would be a perilous creature indeed, even for Morgoth and his forces. And if the Dragon went mad, it would then lose one of its deadliest weapons, its craftiness.

But even if it retained its senses, it was a liability and posssibly even a dangerous rival for dominion of Arda. Morgoth appeared jealous of his more powerful pawns, he used Dragons and Balrogs only in great assaults or for the protection of his fortress. Perhaps just so, for when he sends Glaurung with a considerable force to Norgothrond, the serpent carries out his master's command but then claims Nargothrond for his own and sees off the orcs. Morgoth did not appear to be able to recall his probably then most powerful warrior. The moment his creatures stray too far from his immediate surroundings, he has far less control on them. To add a Silmaril in this mix is a risky gamble and Morgoth wasn't really the betting type.

[Midge]

I think the Silmarils had some kind of addictive power as well. Feanor was really uber possessive, to the point of paranoia about them, IIRC, and I wouldn't imagine Morgoth would be willing to let them out of his sight once he'd got them.

Not to mention, dragons are treasure-hungry. I think if he handed a Silmaril to a dragon, he'd probably have never gotten it back.