Who or what was Huan? - Page 3

Curufin · 04-10-2008, 05:31 AM

Well, I don't think with Arwen that it was so much 'Beauty is in the eyes of the Beholder,' or with Lúthien, for that matter. I think they were both heart-rendingly lovely.

EDIT: Woohoo, I have a nifty user title!

Jon S. · 05-15-2008, 06:50 PM

It took me another month but darn if I don't believe I have the answer now to the riddle and the best part of it is, this time, I found it myself.

OF AULE AND YVANNA

"... Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yvanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared."

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/k/kelvar.html

The Dread Pirate Roberts · 05-16-2008, 02:12 PM

Great find. I think we most often apply this to Ents and forget that it says both kelvar and olvar. I think you've hit right on the target.

***Earniel*** · 05-16-2008, 03:30 PM

Indeed, a good find. I don't think a better explanation than that can be found.

Finarfin-1 · 08-25-2008, 12:33 AM

Another thing,
The creation of Carcaroth, the Wolf who Huan fought and died killing. Morgoth created him by "putting his power into him". Now, Melkor was said to "Have a share in the gifts of all other Ainur". Might we suppose that the creation of Carcaroth was a debased example of Morgoth using Orome's type of power?

Carcaroth could reason. He had "heard the tidings long since brought to Angband of the death of Drauuglin", which was why he challenged Beren and Luthien at the gate and made it necessary for Luthien to hit him with the knockout whammy. Luthien also called this reasoning wolf a "woe-begotten spirit" when it would have been just as easy (and make a lot more sense) if she felt Carcaroth was just some sort of twisted animal to call him a woe-begotten creature or something like that.

I think the creation of Carcaroth in a backhanded way supports the theory that Huan is a spirit that Orome called/persuaded to his service, which took the form of a Hound because that was its nature, in the same way as the Valar and Maiar appear as male and female humanoids in keeping with their natures.

Valarauko5 · 03-16-2009, 01:10 AM

Wow. If only this sort of thing could happen with Balrogs that would put that to rest to.

Cool. Thanks guys for figuring this out. I can now use this in an argument on Facebook with a would-be hard core LotR fan who doesn't know Maia from Valar. This is really cool.

Mornorngûr · 10-10-2010, 05:03 PM

Interesting points being made here...

I think we can all conclude that the actual explanation would go a little something like this: Yavanna feared that Morgoth would ruin/destroy her designs (Kelvar and Olvar), so she went to Manwe and they spoke about this. She declared to him her desire "Would that the Tree's might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them", and Manwe took council with Eru. It was then revealed to Yavanna that when the Elve's awake, the designs of her thought shall awake also (Eru will cause this to come to be).

"... Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yvanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared."

The spirits that it mentions as summoning from afar, would seem to be some of the remaining Ainu that stayed with Eru outside of Ea. The Valar are the powers of Arda and the Maia their servants, yet they are all of the race of the Ainur. Why then do these other spirits (Huan, Thorondor, etc...) have to be Maia?
A Maia is not a race, but an order ruled by the Valar. The spirits embodied within Tolkien's enchanted beasts are but a different order of the Ainur sent by Eru to govern where appointed amongst the lesser equivalents of their appointed beast kind.

Just my thoughts
Thankyou.

Elennár · 01-12-2011, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curufin

Can't answer that, I'm afraid.

Does a Maia have a fëa? Does a Vala have a fëa?

I don't know.

No, they don't. There is a fundamental difference between a fëa of a Child of Illuvatar, and an Ainu: a fëa is incomplete without the hroa, it needs the body to survive/reach its full potential.
Whereas an Ainu doesn't require physical bodies to survive at all, they're just used as a matter of convenience/choice/taste.
Ulmo, for example, didn't like taking physical shape that much; so he didn't unless he absolutely needed to.
This is turning into a rather Off Topic rant, but I think that a physical body limited the power of an Ainu in some way- almost the opposite of an Incarnate, such as an elf or human.
So, if Huan was an Ainu, he would've been unfallen (being in the service of Manwë). That would mean he would've been able to forsake physical shape.
But he didn't.

Jon S. · 01-17-2011, 10:47 PM

This is my first post in 2 years and 8 months. For some inexplicable reason, I became curious specifically as to what happened to this thread. Amazing that it's still alive after all this time (the last post dated just several days ago!).

Lefty Scaevola · 04-25-2013, 04:49 PM

This is, afterall, Entmoot, where thread proceed at an Entish pace.

04-10-2008, 05:31 AM	#41
Curufin The Ñoldóran Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Mishawaka, IN Posts: 2,050	Well, I don't think with Arwen that it was so much 'Beauty is in the eyes of the Beholder,' or with Lúthien, for that matter. I think they were both heart-rendingly lovely. EDIT: Woohoo, I have a nifty user title! __________________ Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian

05-15-2008, 06:50 PM	#42
Jon S. Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 455	It took me another month but darn if I don't believe I have the answer now to the riddle and the best part of it is, this time, I found it myself. OF AULE AND YVANNA "... Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yvanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared." http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/k/kelvar.html __________________ Don't curse the darkness - light a candle. Last edited by Jon S. : 05-15-2008 at 06:53 PM.

05-16-2008, 02:12 PM	#43
The Dread Pirate Roberts Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 987	Great find. I think we most often apply this to Ents and forget that it says both kelvar and olvar. I think you've hit right on the target. __________________ ~The DPR "Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning."

05-16-2008, 03:30 PM	#44
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Indeed, a good find. I don't think a better explanation than that can be found. __________________ We are not things.

10-10-2010, 05:03 PM	#47
Mornorngûr Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: London Posts: 26	Interesting points being made here... I think we can all conclude that the actual explanation would go a little something like this: Yavanna feared that Morgoth would ruin/destroy her designs (Kelvar and Olvar), so she went to Manwe and they spoke about this. She declared to him her desire "Would that the Tree's might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them", and Manwe took council with Eru. It was then revealed to Yavanna that when the Elve's awake, the designs of her thought shall awake also (Eru will cause this to come to be). "... Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yvanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared." The spirits that it mentions as summoning from afar, would seem to be some of the remaining Ainu that stayed with Eru outside of Ea. The Valar are the powers of Arda and the Maia their servants, yet they are all of the race of the Ainur. Why then do these other spirits (Huan, Thorondor, etc...) have to be Maia? A Maia is not a race, but an order ruled by the Valar. The spirits embodied within Tolkien's enchanted beasts are but a different order of the Ainur sent by Eru to govern where appointed amongst the lesser equivalents of their appointed beast kind. Just my thoughts Thankyou. __________________ ----------- Then Sauron spake and said thou trall, the price thou askest is but small. Last edited by Mornorngûr : 10-10-2010 at 06:18 PM.

08-25-2008, 12:33 AM	#45
Finarfin-1 Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 21	Another thing, The creation of Carcaroth, the Wolf who Huan fought and died killing. Morgoth created him by "putting his power into him". Now, Melkor was said to "Have a share in the gifts of all other Ainur". Might we suppose that the creation of Carcaroth was a debased example of Morgoth using Orome's type of power? Carcaroth could reason. He had "heard the tidings long since brought to Angband of the death of Drauuglin", which was why he challenged Beren and Luthien at the gate and made it necessary for Luthien to hit him with the knockout whammy. Luthien also called this reasoning wolf a "woe-begotten spirit" when it would have been just as easy (and make a lot more sense) if she felt Carcaroth was just some sort of twisted animal to call him a woe-begotten creature or something like that. I think the creation of Carcaroth in a backhanded way supports the theory that Huan is a spirit that Orome called/persuaded to his service, which took the form of a Hound because that was its nature, in the same way as the Valar and Maiar appear as male and female humanoids in keeping with their natures.

03-16-2009, 01:10 AM	#46
Valarauko5 Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Nashua, New Hampshire Posts: 48	Wow. If only this sort of thing could happen with Balrogs that would put that to rest to. Cool. Thanks guys for figuring this out. I can now use this in an argument on Facebook with a would-be hard core LotR fan who doesn't know Maia from Valar. This is really cool.

01-17-2011, 10:47 PM	#49
Jon S. Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 455	This is my first post in 2 years and 8 months. For some inexplicable reason, I became curious specifically as to what happened to this thread. Amazing that it's still alive after all this time (the last post dated just several days ago!). __________________ Don't curse the darkness - light a candle.

04-25-2013, 04:49 PM	#50
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	This is, afterall, Entmoot, where thread proceed at an Entish pace. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"