Who or what was Huan?

[Curufin]

Yes, me too.

And I don't personally think Huan was a Maia...

[The Telcontarion]

Tolkien introduced a strict "system" of living creatures:

* Incarnates or the "Children of Ilúvatar": Elves, Men, Dwarves and Orcs, — those who possessed fëar or souls, with the defining characteristic of being able to speak;[39]
* Self-incarnates or the Valar and Maiar — "angelic" spirits that "arrayed" themselves in bodily forms of the Incarnates or of animals,[35][40] able to communicate both by thought and speech;[39]
* animals, without the soul and unable to speak.
(wikipedia)

I knew I remember reading this in the silmarillion but was too lazy to look it up and post it but I then found it wikipedia. Haun was one of those lesser spirits that came to ME with the valar, which would make him a maia.

Obviously if he was speaking he was not just some animal, the ultimate dog maybe but not just a dog. He was intelligent and when he spoke it showed he was observing the whole time what was happening all around him, because the 3 times he did spoke showed great wisdom as his advise was very important to beren and luthien; even upon his death when he spoke you knew those were not words of some dumb animal. I think he was just in nature and intent meant to be a symbol of the ultimate dog in every way, thus speaking would not fit that mold as ordinary dogs did not speak, doesn't mean he could not: he was dutiful and served his purpose.

Thorondor is the same though he spoke all the time, he was most definately a maia spirit. "They arrayed themselves in the bodies of incarnates/children of illuvatar or animals," that's plain right there.

Remember even the valar chose forms that suited their mood, pertaining to the part of the "music" they listened to most. Thorondor's spirit was just that, thorondor and Haun became Haun.

Was Gandalf not a maia or was he just a man: think.

[Curufin]

Was Gandalf not a maia or was he just a man: think.

Gandalf was a Maia. He's called so repeatedly, and he's in the chapter 'of the Maiar' in the Silmarillion, as well as other places in the HoME I'm too lazy to look up right now.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Technically, he's not mentioned per se in the Silmarillion. Olórin the Maia is mentioned in The Silmarillion and in LotR Gandalf gives Olórin as his name in his "youth, in the West that is forgotten." So one has to have read both books to make the connection. But it is assumed that anyone in this thread has done so. Anyway, Gandalf is a Maia.

Huan, I'd like to think is a Maia, as well. I think it is important to remember that any spirit made by Iluvatar that isn't Valar, is Maiar. That's what the Maiar are.

The difficulty, as seen in Tolkien's musings and our own common sense, is when these spirits incarnate and then breed. What are their offspring? And was Huan an incarnate Maia or was he merely the offspring of such? Or something else entirely?

[Curufin]

I think it is important to remember that any spirit made by Iluvatar that isn't Valar, is Maiar. That's what the Maiar are.

Not technically true. Ilúvatar also made the spirits of Elves and Men.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I don't think they're the same kind of spirits. That we call them both the same thing is a flaw in the English language (kind of like Galadriel's "magic" versus Sam's "magic").

Is a Maia a fea?

[Curufin]

Can't answer that, I'm afraid.

Does a Maia have a fëa? Does a Vala have a fëa?

I don't know.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

The question was (almost) rhetorical. I don't believe they're the same thing, but I leave open the possibility that I'm wrong.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

The question was (almost) rhetorical. I don't believe they're the same thing, but I leave open the possibility that I'm wrong.

I know. So were mine.

I think you're right that they are different, but how different?

This is getting away from the question, however. I don't think the text really indicates that Huan is a Maia. I think it indicates to the contrary, actually. There is the one point where Tolkien might once have thought about it at one time, but I really think he's just a dog.

[Earniel]

I was thinking about the possibility of maiar having offspring, and then I come here, being excited by this idea and see Dread Pirate has long mentioned it before. Hmpf.

But nevertheless, I like the idea of more maian blood being infused in middle-earthern bloodlines. Specifically in regards to all the talking animals, such as the ravens of the Lonely Mountain that could talk too. Having them be descendants from one maia mixed into their ordinary ancestors could result in a sort of enhancing of the animal in question, without it being what we call the maiar.

[Curufin]

Having them be descendants from one maia mixed into their ordinary ancestors could result in a sort of enhancing of the animal in question, without it being what we call the maiar.

I like this idea...although I'm not sure there's any textual evidence for it (that I can remember right off hand, anyway. But I don't remember any textual evidence against it, either, which is just as good.

[Earniel]

It is - of course - pure conjecture. But it is an interesting possibility nevertheless.

[Curufin]

I'm perfectly open to conjecture, as long as it doesn't go directly against canon. I RP, after all.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

We do have Luthien who seems to have had some abilities a normal Elf wouldn't have. There is no indication, however, that anything Maiar passed on to Dior or beyond...but is there?

Could Ulmo have turned just anyone into a bird, at will? Or was there something about Elwing that made it possible? He didn't turn Voronwe into a bird, but just sent the poor guy body-surfing. He didn't turn any of the Elves into birds to get them to Valinor in the first place, but rather had to make an island ferry for them. Why just Elwing? Maia blood?

[Curufin]

Could be. Maybe he just liked her, too.

And I can't recall anything specifically 'Maia' done by Dior, or Elwing, or Elrond or Elros, or Arwen, or anyone in Elros's line. I think they're supposed to be a little more special, a little 'better' but how much is anyone's guess.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

They were certainly considered to be better looking...
I'm stretching with the bird transformation thing. Definitely fanfic there.

[Curufin]

Were they (the line of Elros, I mean) considered to be better-looking than the Eldar?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I don't think so. I was mainly thinking the Dior, Elwing, Elrond, Arwen line. The Man side of the family may have been better looking than other men, and indeed seems to have been right down to Imrahil's day, but better looking than the Eldar I have to doubt unless there's some evidence I'm missing.

[Curufin]

I didn't think so, either.

They're good looking for men, but certainly not to the beauty of Maiar. Although doesn't it say something somewhere about Arwen channeling Lúthien? Not in those words, of course.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Of course, there's the matter of taste, as well. Not everyone swoons over the same type. There's someone for everyone, even Ghan-Buri-Ghan, I presume.