Tolkien discussion ideas

[Sister Golden Hair]

Welcome to the Silmarillion forum.

In an effort to promote discussion of the Silmarillion, we would like to invite you to post your ideas in this thread. List any topics you would care to discuss. Even topics that you feel may have been overdone or recently posted are welcome. Please feel free to make suggestions as to how you think we can improve our Tolkien community and its forums. We especially wish to invite and strongly encourage all newbies to join in.

We look forward to reading your topic ideas and suggestions.

Thank you for your participation.

[Elanor the Fair]

Great idea, again SGH, however, I've already posted some suggestions in the LOTR and Middle Earth forums and they wouldn't be that much different from the suggestions that I would make for this forum.

One thing, though. The Silmarillion is a vastly more complex book than the LOTR. It's a lot harder to discuss characters and their actions etc. If we want to encourage people, including "newbies" to read and discuss the book, it is imperative that there are sufficient "simple" discussions to enable beginning readers to join in. This is not to say that more complex discussions should not be encouraged, however, providing an "easy" entry point will support discussion at a more complex level at a later date.

Regards,
Elanor

[Artanis]

Personally I would welcome a character discussion here as well. We have already covered some of the characters in the Sil Project, but repetition would not hurt us.

One thing, though. The Silmarillion is a vastly more complex book than the LOTR. It's a lot harder to discuss characters and their actions etc. If we want to encourage people, including "newbies" to read and discuss the book, it is imperative that there are sufficient "simple" discussions to enable beginning readers to join in. This is not to say that more complex discussions should not be encouraged, however, providing an "easy" entry point will support discussion at a more complex level at a later date.

I'm not sure if I agree that the Sil is a more complex book than LotR. They are different, and the Sil is perhaps more difficult to get a grasp on at the first reading. I'm not sure what you mean by 'simple' discussions either - what is it? I'm not sure if simplicity is the best way. I think the way we greet newcomers are much more important (friendly replies, trying to answer their questions, not making them look stupid, no sarcasms etc.). When I was a newbie I was grateful for meeting all the people here with so much more knowledge than myself. But of course, all people are not like me.

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Personally I would welcome a character discussion here as well. We have already covered some of the characters in the Sil Project, but repetition would not hurt us.
I'm not sure if I agree that the Sil is a more complex book than LotR. They are different, and the Sil is perhaps more difficult to get a grasp on at the first reading. I'm not sure what you mean by 'simple' discussions either - what is it? I'm not sure if simplicity is the best way. I think the way we greet newcomers are much more important (friendly replies, trying to answer their questions, not making them look stupid, no sarcasms etc.). When I was a newbie I was grateful for meeting all the people here with so much more knowledge than myself. But of course, all people are not like me.

I guess what I was considering was the wide range of ages of people who participate in entmoot forums. The LOTR is a book that has the ability to span many age-groups. It has a plot that is easy to follow, at least on the surface, which lends itself to many levels of discussions and encompasses many depths of understanding. It is like, say, watching "Chicken Run". The plot is enjoyed by the children and the deeper level of humour and satire is enjoyed by adults. It allows transition from one level of understanding to a deeper one.

I think it would be fair to say that it is easier to discuss the LOTR at multi-levels than The Silmarillion. When I said "simple" discussions I meant that perhaps we should think creatively about how we can encourage discussions where all levels of understanding can be encompassed.

For example: Talking about chronology where you simply discuss what happened, when, where and how is a much simpler concept to grasp than why a character behaved in a particular way - particularly when to do this may require integration of a variety of references. It is a difficult book to read the first time. We need to support and encourage first time readers.

I agree with you that the way we greet newcomers is important. I am a "newbie" here myself. I only joined Entmoot last month. I have been most grateful for the warm welcome and assistance I have received from others.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

I guess what I was considering was the wide range of ages of people who participate in entmoot forums. The LOTR is a book that has the ability to span many age-groups. It has a plot that is easy to follow, at least on the surface, which lends itself to many levels of discussions and encompasses many depths of understanding. It is like, say, watching "Chicken Run". The plot is enjoyed by the children and the deeper level of humour and satire is enjoyed by adults. It allows transition from one level of understanding to a deeper one.

I think it would be fair to say that it is easier to discuss the LOTR at multi-levels than The Silmarillion. When I said "simple" discussions I meant that perhaps we should think creatively about how we can encourage discussions where all levels of understanding can be encompassed.

I see what you're saying, and I don't disagree with you.

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

For example: Talking about chronology where you simply discuss what happened, when, where and how is a much simpler concept to grasp than why a character behaved in a particular way - particularly when to do this may require integration of a variety of references.

Yes and no. It is in general hard to discuss things in the Sil without referring to HoME and/or UT. Even putting up a timeline isn't as simple as it may look at first sight, there are ambiguities here as well, and this task will also involve bringing in references from other sources.

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

It is a difficult book to read the first time. We need to support and encourage first time readers.

Yes, but if we make it too simple, we risk losing members who prefer the in-depth discussions.

[Aphanuzîr]

Did it have any significance that Lúthien saw Gondolin from above?
Beleg and Mablung
The relation between Nienor and Finduilas

[Ñólendil]

It is like, say, watching "Chicken Run".

Eh? The Lord of the Rings, like "Chicken Run"? Eh? I think Chicken Run lends itself to many age-groups much better than the Lord of the Rings does. Little kids can watch Chicken Run--most of them can't read Lord of the Rings..

The plot is enjoyed by the children and the deeper level of humour and satire is enjoyed by adults.

Yes! I think this especially applies when the forces of the Dark Lord fling human heads into Minas Tirith with catapults.

I think The Silmarillion is a slower and perhaps more difficult to read than Lord of the Rings, and is more broad in scope, but Lord of the Rings is not in any way a children's book.

I can't think of anything I'd like to discuss that other people would too For example, I've always dreamed of the day someone would wander onto the Silmarillion board and ask: "Hey, does someone have a synopsis of the Sundering of the Elves according to Ñoldorin Reckoning, after the Doom of Mandos was spoken but before the Exiles arrived in Beleriand?" Maybe it's an unrealistic dream, and maybe it's sad I used to spend hours drawing up Elven Race charts and family trees with a pen, but you know what? Someone has to waste time ... much like I've done for this thread.

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

Eh? The Lord of the Rings, like "Chicken Run"? Eh? I think Chicken Run lends itself to many age-groups much better than the Lord of the Rings does. Little kids can watch Chicken Run--most of them can't read Lord of the Rings..



Yes! I think this especially applies when the forces of the Dark Lord fling human heads into Minas Tirith with catapults.

I think The Silmarillion is a slower and perhaps more difficult to read than Lord of the Rings, and is more broad in scope, but Lord of the Rings is not in any way a children's book.

I can't think of anything I'd like to discuss that other people would too For example, I've always dreamed of the day someone would wander onto the Silmarillion board and ask: "Hey, does someone have a synopsis of the Sundering of the Elves according to Ñoldorin Reckoning, after the Doom of Mandos was spoken but before the Exiles arrived in Beleriand?" Maybe it's an unrealistic dream, and maybe it's sad I used to spend hours drawing up Elven Race charts and family trees with a pen, but you know what? Someone has to waste time ... much like I've done for this thread.

My references to "Chicken Run" were not intended for it to be a parallel to "Lord of the Rings" but merely an illustration of how there can be many degrees of understanding within a text that allows enjoyment at a multitude of levels. I certainly was not suggesting that it is a suitable book for children!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

How about a thread 'Girls of the Silmarillion' so us guys don't feel left out from the Guys of the Silmarillion thread!

[Bombadillo]

You're right. It's a very hard book to read. I've never been able to manage it, but I promise you I'll start it this week, and I'll keep a journal on what I read.

Good ol' SGH approved it! I will put each entry in a separate thread (a project!) and all sorts of relevant comments will be welcome, with spoilers. I won't read your responses until I'm done, and then I'll continue posting in this forum. That'll enliven it.

How about tomorrow with an intro?

[Wayfarer]

Telcontar - Because guys have more self control when it comes to that sort of thing, and are less likely to turn into drooling obsessives.

[Nurvingiel]

Bah. I think all your tough talk is to disguise your inner fanboy Wayfarer.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

You're right. It's a very hard book to read. I've never been able to manage it, but I promise you I'll start it this week, and I'll keep a journal on what I read.

Good ol' SGH approved it! I will put each entry in a separate thread (a project!) and all sorts of relevant comments will be welcome, with spoilers. I won't read your responses until I'm done, and then I'll continue posting in this forum. That'll enliven it.

A 'live' journal is an excellent idea Bombadillo! Perhaps other people will be encouraged to read the Silmarillion along with you. I look forward to your intro!

[Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Bah. I think all your tough talk is to disguise your inner fanboy Wayfarer.

On the contrary, Nervy. I'm the antithesis of fanboyism.

[Bombadillo]

Originally Posted by Artanis

A 'live' journal is an excellent idea Bombadillo! Perhaps other people will be encouraged to read the Silmarillion along with you. I look forward to your intro!

Thank you! Good, it's ready now.

[Thraxon]

this book took me two tries to read so boring the firist hundred pages. got ot go ill be on monday

[Uinor]

What book?

[Maerbenn]

This thread is about discussion ideas for The Silmarillion, so Thraxon probably meant that book.

[Cerebus]

I would like to discuss why a High King of the Noldor cannot come from female descent (ex. Elrond) while a High King of Beleriand (this being the title that Thingol had as the ruler of Doriath) can (ex. Dior). Were there just basic cultural differences which dictated this? Or were there oher factors that played into it?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Cerebus

I would like to discuss why a High King of the Noldor cannot come from female descent (ex. Elrond) while a High King of Beleriand (this being the title that Thingol had as the ruler of Doriath) can (ex. Dior). Were there just basic cultural differences which dictated this? Or were there oher factors that played into it?

I am enjoying posting with you in the "High Kings" thread. I think if we get into great depth of this topic, another thread might be fitting, so please feel free to start one, and welcome to Entmoot.