Were the Valar Shirking their Duty?

[MasterMothra]

There's a bit of a running theme in good old J.R.R's works, and that is that members of the same race are equals and cannot kill or enslave each other without considerable just cause.

Murder and the eventual destruction and enslavement of Middle Earth is just cause for actions by the Valar.

Melkor was a Vala, of the same initial grace and power as Manwe himself, and thus could not ever be simply be enslaved and never be killed.

He was incarcerated before as mentioned in your post.

Once he destroyed the Two Trees, the Valar were kind of occupied with matters of illumination, and thus were unable to purse Melkor into ME.

I dont quite follow what they were occupied with.

I say again, that if they had just remained in Aman, the Valar could have protected them, and justice would have been done to Morgoth sooner, for the Valar would have been prepared earlier.

The Valar would have protected them just as they did Finwe, the Two Trees and the Silmarils? Melkor would not stop in his quest for domination, ever. This is well documented throughout the text. If the Valar thought otherwise their naivity showed no bounds.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

If you would read the various post before these from many different people, you would NEVER SEE THE ARGUEMENT THAT VALINOR IS PERFECTLY SAFE!

Yay Melkor for killing the King and taking the silmarils and destroying the two trees.

So Melkor took the Silmarils. He ALSO took and sacked hundreds of works and cities in Beleriand. He destroyed the two trees. He ALSO destroyed the Lamps of the Valar, in ME. So he Killed the High King of the Noldor in Aman. He ALSO killed the High king of the Noldor in ME, along with countless thousands of Eldar and Edain.

Do the math mate, for christ sake.

Nowhere in Ea is wholly safe from Morgoth.

But putting forth the same argument I have used from the beginning: Compared to Middle Earth, Valinor is easily the safest place for the Eldar to be.

[Eärloth]

Scuse me! Just to interrupt the argument for one brief, shining moment, I wanted to post this:

Originally posted by Valandil
Melkor was greater than any single Vala... but if they took him on together, he didn't stand a chance - as they proved at the end of the First Age. Why didn't they just defeat him from the start? Or at least 'take him out' once the Firstborn came along?

Probably because the Valar are to be looked to as the more forgiving, trusting and overall better beings in terms of their likenesses (or dislikenesses) and compatibility with Melkor; because they were themselves not so vulnerable or understanding of evil - and many of Melkor's intentions based on evil - it would have seemed perfectly fair - and rational - to forgive him and accept him back into their society. Thereafter perhaps it seemed that the Elves took upon themselves the burden of Melkor/Morgoth, receiving no aid from the Valar because of the Kinslaying (and numerous other reasons).

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

quote Glorfindel
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melkor was a Vala, of the same initial grace and power as Manwe himself, and thus could not ever be simply be enslaved and never be killed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote Master Mortha

"He was incarcerated before as mentioned in your post."



Oh, and just by the by, when I said "...thus could not ever be simply enslaved and never be killed.", I did not say that he could not be enslaved, or that he was not enslaved.

I said he could not be "simply" enslaved, and if you had read the full passage of what I wrote instead of attempting to out-argue me on every point (something in which you unfortunatley fail), you would have caught the full meaning of the phrase.

The Valar could not simply walk into Utumno and lead him away into happy exile beyond the walls of the world. Melkor would fight them and Arda would suffer the destruction of the battle. They (the Valar) did not want this to happen, so thus my use of the term "simply enslave".

Enslaving Melkor would have a price.

[MasterMothra]

Obviously I have read your entire post, or why would I respond? I just "simply" do not agree with you. I didnt know that opinions had a pass/fail option attached to them either.

You stated that enslaving Melkor would have a price. I agree, but by that same token, not taking action against him in a diligent manner did come with a price. Sometimes its better to be proactive instead of reactive. In the end the Valar had to confront Melkor anyway. My position is that they should have taken action sooner instead of letting him build up his forces and wreak massive amounts of damage upon the peoples of middle earth.

As far as your argument that Valinor is a safer place for the Eldar, that is your opinion. I assume that if Eru had wanted the Eldar to be in Valinor, instead of middle earth, then he would have had them awaken there. The opposite is actually the better argument; the Eldar should have remained in middle earth where they were born, and the Valar should have made middle earth a safer place for them to be.

Another piece of advice, dont become so angry when someone disagrees with you. When you can actually make some sort of logical argument for your point then respond, if not then dont.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
Obviously I have read your entire post, or why would I respond? I just "simply" do not agree with you. I didnt know that opinions had a pass/fail option attached to them either.

You stated that enslaving Melkor would have a price. I agree, but by that same token, not taking action against him in a diligent manner did come with a price. Sometimes its better to be proactive instead of reactive. In the end the Valar had to confront Melkor anyway. My position is that they should have taken action sooner instead of letting him build up his forces and wreak massive amounts of damage upon the peoples of middle earth.

As far as your argument that Valinor is a safer place for the Eldar, that is your opinion. I assume that if Eru had wanted the Eldar to be in Valinor, instead of middle earth, then he would have had them awaken there. The opposite is actually the better argument; the Eldar should have remained in middle earth where they were born, and the Valar should have made middle earth a safer place for them to be.

Another piece of advice, dont become so angry when someone disagrees with you. When you can actually make some sort of logical argument for your point then respond, if not then dont.

I do agree, if the Valar could, they should've attack Melkor before. The 'price' is the same price, before and after. After the price might be even bigger.

Probably, the Elves' purpose by Eru was to be free in ME.
The Valar wanted tpo bring the evles to Aman, and show them what they can have if they come to the 'Blessed Land'. The Valar didn't made the choice to the Elves - the elves decided by themselves. They had free will to stay at ME.
I believe they could also leave Aman if they wanted - but after the death of the two trees, the Valar wanted the elves to stay at Valinor and stay safe until the Valar think of what to do. The Noldor did not agree to stay and left to ME without the agreement of the Valar, and therefore were punished.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
Obviously I have read your entire post, or why would I respond? I just "simply" do not agree with you. I didnt know that opinions had a pass/fail option attached to them either.

You stated that enslaving Melkor would have a price. I agree, but by that same token, not taking action against him in a diligent manner did come with a price. Sometimes its better to be proactive instead of reactive. In the end the Valar had to confront Melkor anyway. My position is that they should have taken action sooner instead of letting him build up his forces and wreak massive amounts of damage upon the peoples of middle earth.

As far as your argument that Valinor is a safer place for the Eldar, that is your opinion. I assume that if Eru had wanted the Eldar to be in Valinor, instead of middle earth, then he would have had them awaken there. The opposite is actually the better argument; the Eldar should have remained in middle earth where they were born, and the Valar should have made middle earth a safer place for them to be.

Another piece of advice, dont become so angry when someone disagrees with you. When you can actually make some sort of logical argument for your point then respond, if not then dont.

Anger, my dear MasterMothra? What anger? I state my belief's with conviction, and back them with precedent where ever possible.

I have support from previous posts from others, I have textual evidence to back my arguement, and I have common sense on my side, sir.

I have no anger because I need none. I have right.

As you say, my opinion is my own, and that is true. but I formulate it from evidence in the text, and from Tolkien's letters, and then from my own knowldege.

All I ever hear from you is speculation, unsupported by fact. We can speculate that Morgoth liked fluffy teddy bears and enjoyed long walks at sunset. Speculation is a waste of space my friend.

If all we have is our opinions, then at least mine is backed up by more than words.

[MasterMothra]

LOL.

My resistance is futile, you are right.

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

Indeed sir, well said. And indeed, well fought. Nothing better than a good debate.

[Ruinel]

To the opinion that Valinor is not safe, Valinor is an open society. In any open society, you run the risk of being open to evil as well as good. In the case where Melkor caused the death of the trees and Finwe, and the theft of the Silmarils... among other evil acts... it could not have been prevented in Valinor, nor in any other place as open as that.

[Valandil]

In currently re-reading the Sil (don't recall which for sure - this is probably about #3, #4 or #5), I'm struck by how often the Valar had to go to war with Melkor, before the Eldar even came around.

Makes me wonder if they were just plain tired of all the strife in later times when evil reared its head - and they don't seem to react to it very strongly.