The Silmarillion:Valaquenta

***RÃan*** · 12-02-2002, 01:15 PM

The next chapter in our discussion of the Silmarillion is: Valaquenta : Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar

I only have 2 HoME books, so I could use some help with the references, please

The references I have are:[list=1][*]Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10), Part Three - The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Section I, "The First Phase", No. 1, "Of the Valar";[*]Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10), Part Three - The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Section I, "The Second Phase", "The Valaquenta";[*]The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, various places (I just had to get "Letters" in here! It's one of my favorite books, and he certainly discusses the Valar in "Letters")[/list=1]

I asked Ã‘Ã³lendil for some help with translating "Valaquenta", since I don't know Quenya (and didn't realize that JRRT provided the translation right in the subtitle!), and he gave me the following:

Quote:

from Ã‘Ã³lendil
"Valaquenta" is translated in the Silmarillion as "Account of the Valar". "Quenta" = "story". Cf. Quenta Silmarillion - "The Story of the Silmarilli". "Valar" does mean "Powers", but in the sense of "Authorities". So Valaquenta = "Account of the Valar, Story of the Valar, Account of the Authorities, etc.

The first part of the Valaquenta summarizes the events in AinulindalÃ«; the second part is called "Of the Valar"; the third part is called "Of the Maiar", and the final part is called "Of the Enemies".

To start the discussion off, I'll pose the following questions:

(1) In "Of the Valar", the following spirits are referred to as "The Great":
The Lords of the Valar: ManwÃ«, Ulmo, AulÃ«, OromÃ«, Mandos, LÃ³rien, and Tulkas;
The Valier, the Queens of the Valar: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, EstÃ«, VairÃ«, VÃ¡na, and Nessa.
"Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth."

(a) Is there any significance in the number, names, and "speciality" of each of these spirits?

(b) Which of the Valar are your favorites, and why?

(c) Why did Tolkien choose to represent the Valar as male and female, and do you see reasons for selecting the spouses and siblings (brethren) as he did, or even for having the Valar have spouses and siblings.

Finrod Felagund · 12-02-2002, 02:46 PM

Ahhh, it's already here!

***RÃan*** · 12-02-2002, 04:55 PM

To help with the questions in the first post, I put together a list of spouses and siblings (I suppose that's the word that would apply?) among the Valar. Please correct me if I am in error.

Valar:
ManwÃ« : spouse of Varda, brother of Melkor
Ulmo : no spouse, no siblings
AulÃ« : spouse of Yavanna, no siblings
OromÃ« : spouse of VÃ¡na, brother of Nessa
Mandos (NÃ¡mo): spouse of VairÃ«, brother of LÃ³rien and Nienna
LÃ³rien (Irmo) : spouse of EstÃ«, brother of Mandos and Nienna
Tulkas : spouse of Nessa, no siblings

Valier:
Varda : spouse of ManwÃ«, no siblings
Yavanna : spouse of AulÃ«, older sister of VÃ¡na
Nienna : no spouse, sister of Mandos and LÃ³rien
EstÃ« : spouse of LÃ³rien, no siblings
VairÃ« : spouse of Mandos, no siblings
VÃ¡na : spouse of OromÃ«, younger sister of Yavanna
Nessa : spouse of Tulkas, sister of OromÃ«

No longer counted among the Valar:
Melkor (Morgoth) : brother of ManwÃ«, attempted to take AriÃ« (a Maia in the service of Varda and in charge of the Sun) as his spouse against her will, and got burned (literally and figuratively!) After his attempt, "Melkor was burned and his brightness darkened, and he gave no more light, but light pained him exceedingly and he hated it."

Keith K · 12-02-2002, 10:29 PM

In creating his mythology it seems that Tolkien borrowed heavily from other, existing mythologies. The extended family of Valar and Maiar is similar to the gods and goddesses of ancient Greece and Rome. The fall of Melkor is similar to the fall of Satan in Christian mythology. As the Sil unfolds into later chapters elements from Norse mythology can be seen.
On the whole, the chapter serves as a means to present a list of the movers and shakers in Valinor. There's not much action or even scene setting going on in it. Just a cast of characters without any bells or whistles.

***RÃan*** · 12-03-2002, 02:56 AM

Yes, I know it's a bit slow, but let's see if we can dig up anything. I don't think it will last for 3 weeks, though - we should probably move on sooner.

OK, let me work on those wonderful, intelligent, thought-provoking questions

(a) Is there any significance in the number, names, and "speciality" of each of these spirits?
I don't know Quenya, so I can't comment on names. Does anyone else have anything to share? I think the specialities are interesting, and I like how they seem to be interested in both the great and the small in their areas. For example, ManwÃ«'s :

Quote:

delight is in the winds and the clouds, and in all the regions of the air, from the heights to the depths, from the utmost borders of the Veil of Arda to the breezes that blow in the grass.

I get the feeling that Melkor would only pay attention to the "bigger" aspects of his area. That's such nice imagery, from the breezes in the grass to the outer atmosphere.

(b) Which of the Valar are your favorites, and why?
I know this was on another thread, but I thought it might be nice to repeat here. I love the stars, so I like Varda, but I'll have to get back about the others, because it's late and I need to get off!

(c) Why did Tolkien choose to represent the Valar as male and female, and do you see reasons for selecting the spouses and siblings (brethren) as he did, or even for having the Valar have spouses and siblings.
I've always wondered about the spouse idea - didn't he change his mind about spouses later on, or was it that at first, they had offspring, then he changed his mind about that?

Keith K · 12-03-2002, 06:47 AM

If I had to pick a favorite Vala it would be Ulmo. He is the most active in the affairs of ME at least, with his waters flowing over and under the earth. At least he does something. The rest of em seem to be so passive....not much of a story there.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-03-2002, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RÃ*an
[B]Yes, I know it's a bit slow, but let's see if we can dig up anything. I don't think it will last for 3 weeks, though - we should probably move on sooner.

OK, let me work on those wonderful, intelligent, thought-provoking questions

(a) Is there any significance in the number, names, and "speciality" of each of these spirits?
I don't know Quenya, so I can't comment on names. Does anyone else have anything to share? I think the specialities are interesting, and I like how they seem to be interested in both the great and the small in their areas. For example, ManwÃ«'s : I get the feeling that Melkor would only pay attention to the "bigger" aspects of his area. That's such nice imagery, from the breezes in the grass to the outer atmosphere.

I can't comment on their names either, but they were each given a charge in nature in shaping the world. What was Morgoth's area, or did Iluvatar omitt him after he caused discord in the Music? I need to reread this section again.

Quote:

(b) Which of the Valar are your favorites, and why?
I know this was on another thread, but I thought it might be nice to repeat here. I love the stars, so I like Varda, but I'll have to get back about the others, because it's late and I need to get off!

I too have always liked Varda and Manwe. Next would be Ulmo. Tulkus was pretty awesome. I also liked Yavanna

Quote:

(c) Why did Tolkien choose to represent the Valar as male and female, and do you see reasons for selecting the spouses and siblings (brethren) as he did, or even for having the Valar have spouses and siblings.
I've always wondered about the spouse idea - didn't he change his mind about spouses later on, or was it that at first, they had offspring, then he changed his mind about that?

I think giving the Valar gender makes it easier for the reader to relate to them. Also it seemed that certian of the tasks assigned to the Valar were feminine and masculine for that mythology. Tulkus being so warrior like, and Yavanna being gentle and nurturing all the growing things. Manwe with the wind which can be powerful. Varda with the stars, which is more gentle and of beauty, and so on. Just my two cents.

Lief Erikson · 12-03-2002, 02:40 PM

How odd . . . My favorites are ManwÃ« and Varda as well, with Ulmo as a close second.

ManwÃ« because he is so close to the heart of IlÃºvatar, and I like the difference between him and Melkor. Even if Melkor is more powerful, that doesn't make him greater than ManwÃ«, for it is righteousness that matters, not strength.

Varda because . . . well just look at this quote:

Quote:

Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of elves; for the light of IlÃºvatar lives still in her face. In light is her power and her joy. Out of the deeps of EÃ¤ she came to the aid of ManwÃ«; for Melkor she knew from the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru made.

That's why I like Varda. Because she resisted Melkor's temptations, and is extremely beautiful and pure of heart. Her connection to the stars also is very neat, as RÃ*an said.

Ulmo is one of my favorites for a few reasons. I like how he only occasionally comes to the councils of the Valar, how he is alone and also how he searches out the deeps: places that only he has seen. Also I like how he is so deeply in tune with the music, and is good friends with ManwÃ«.

Finrod Felagund · 12-03-2002, 03:15 PM

I can't remember but I think I read somewhere, was Morgoth' area fire? That would definitly account for the dragons. Or would Aule be under that category?

Elvet · 12-03-2002, 10:39 PM

The Valar all have affiliations with the physical powers of the earth. It is reminiscent of what one thinks of as the more basic belief systems - gods of water, wind, sun, stars, etc. Tolkien manages to animate these gods with feelings of happiness, anger, passion, greed, and sorrow. Yet they all work in unison to sustain the world. All except for Melkor. He is the dissident, and as such, is capable of much destruction. It seems odd that just 1 valar could reek such havoc. I like to look at it as Melkor going against the forces of nature, thinking and acting as if the world was there for his benefit, to corrupt and pillage for his use only. The other valar are repairing the damage, healing the wounds.
This may be simplifying it a lot, but to me this chapter speaks of the connection we have with the earth that sustains us. I like to think that no matter how destructive and obtrusive we are, given enough time, the forces of nature can heal the damage.

Meriadoc · 12-03-2002, 11:30 PM

As I put together the sibling/spouse list, I found it interesting that Ulmo was the only one without either a sibling or a spouse, and he's the one that's usually ends up acting alone, and "dwells nowhere long".

The other unusual one was Nienna, the only one of the Valier that had no spouse, but then again, she had TWO brothers!

I think that relationships are very powerful and meaningful, and perhaps that's why Tolkien gave the Valar siblings and spouses - for comfort, encouragement, assistance, etc. And I like how the pairings are - air and stars; earth and fruit of the earth; keeper of the Houses of the Dead and recorder of the deeds of the dead; master of visions and dreams with the healer and giver of rest; the valiant fighter with the exhuberent dancer. The only one that doesn't match up so well in my mind is Orome and Vana - the serious hunter with the flower-opener. Maybe it corresponds with the passage in Ecclesiates about "a time for war and a time for peace".

Y'know, SGH, I think Melkor was never "assigned" an area, like you said, I suppose because he rebelled even before the world was actually created. I'll try to find something on that (or anyone else, too). But he is associated with fire somehow, I'll try to find that too.

***RÃan*** · 12-03-2002, 11:32 PM

That last post was actually mine - I had forgotten my son logged me off to check his PMs!

Keith K · 12-04-2002, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RÃ*an
That last post was actually mine - I had forgotten my son logged me off to check his PMs!

Too funny Rian! I was temporarily confused by that post. It sounded like you yet it wasn't you, yet it originated in your house!

Thankyou for pointing out that Ulmo was alone mostly. It's another reason why I think he is interesting. I'm sure he found it rather boring hanging out in Valmar with the others doing pretty much.....nothing!

Finrod Felagund · 12-04-2002, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Finrod Felagund
I can't remember but I think I read somewhere, was Morgoth' area fire? That would definitly account for the dragons.

Am I desperately misinformed?

***RÃan*** · 12-04-2002, 09:02 PM

No, I think you're right, but I haven't had time to look it up yet - anyone else know? or I'll look later tonight ... I'm speed-posting right now, because it's finish-homework-time and prepare-dinner-time...

Keith K · 12-04-2002, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RÃ*an
...it's finish-homework-time and prepare-dinner-time...

I resemble that remark!!

***RÃan*** · 12-05-2002, 01:23 PM

Are you the dinner-preparer or the homework-doer, or both, or neither?

OK, here's the only thing I found - from Morgoth's Ring (of course

), the Later Quenta Silmarillion I -

Quote:

In ice and fire was his delight. But darkness he used most in all his evil works, and turned it to fear and a name of dread among Elves and Men.

Also in MR and the Sil, it says how Melkor desired light and tried to find the Flame Imperishable for his own. From Myths Transformed, in MR:

Quote:

But Melkor, as hath been told, lusted after all light, desiring it jealously for his own.

***RÃan*** · 12-05-2002, 01:39 PM

Some more questions - this time on parts 2 and 3, "Of the Maiar" and "Of the Enemies":

Of the Maiar:

2. Opinions on temporary rebellion of OssÃ«? Contrast to the rebellions of AulÃ« and Melkor.

3. Opinions/thoughts on OlÃ³rin. It is undisputed that he is Gandalf? Compare his actions in this section to his actions in ME in LoTR.

Of the Enemies:

4. Any further comments on Melkor/Sauron? What do you think of the comment in Morgoth's Ring comparing Morgoth's "brand of evil" to Sauron's? From MR, "Myths Transformed:

Quote:

Melkor 'incarnated' him self (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter, of Arda. He attemped to identify himself with it. A vaster, and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient' ..... But in this way Morgoth lost (or exchanged, or transmuted) the greater part of his original 'angelic' powers, of mind and spirit, while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world ..... The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring......"

5. Do the Valaraukar (Balrogs) have wings? *runs and hides*

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-05-2002, 02:12 PM

RIAN!!!! Where's my big stick? WHAP!

Lief Erikson · 12-05-2002, 02:28 PM

(Gets in the way)

Go back to the shadow with your stick, Sister Golden Hair! YOU SHALL NOT PASSS!!!!!!!

12-02-2002, 02:46 PM	#2
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	Ahhh, it's already here! __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!"

12-02-2002, 04:55 PM	#3
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	Spouses and Siblings... To help with the questions in the first post, I put together a list of spouses and siblings (I suppose that's the word that would apply?) among the Valar. Please correct me if I am in error. Valar: ManwÃ« : spouse of Varda, brother of Melkor Ulmo : no spouse, no siblings AulÃ« : spouse of Yavanna, no siblings OromÃ« : spouse of VÃ¡na, brother of Nessa Mandos (NÃ¡mo): spouse of VairÃ«, brother of LÃ³rien and Nienna LÃ³rien (Irmo) : spouse of EstÃ«, brother of Mandos and Nienna Tulkas : spouse of Nessa, no siblings Valier: Varda : spouse of ManwÃ«, no siblings Yavanna : spouse of AulÃ«, older sister of VÃ¡na Nienna : no spouse, sister of Mandos and LÃ³rien EstÃ« : spouse of LÃ³rien, no siblings VairÃ« : spouse of Mandos, no siblings VÃ¡na : spouse of OromÃ«, younger sister of Yavanna Nessa : spouse of Tulkas, sister of OromÃ« No longer counted among the Valar: Melkor (Morgoth) : brother of ManwÃ«, attempted to take AriÃ« (a Maia in the service of Varda and in charge of the Sun) as his spouse against her will, and got burned (literally and figuratively!) After his attempt, "Melkor was burned and his brightness darkened, and he gave no more light, but light pained him exceedingly and he hated it." __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 12-02-2002 at 05:11 PM.

12-03-2002, 03:15 PM	#9
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	I can't remember but I think I read somewhere, was Morgoth' area fire? That would definitly account for the dragons. Or would Aule be under that category? __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!"

12-03-2002, 10:39 PM	#10
Elvet Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Orillia, Ontario Posts: 221	The Valar all have affiliations with the physical powers of the earth. It is reminiscent of what one thinks of as the more basic belief systems - gods of water, wind, sun, stars, etc. Tolkien manages to animate these gods with feelings of happiness, anger, passion, greed, and sorrow. Yet they all work in unison to sustain the world. All except for Melkor. He is the dissident, and as such, is capable of much destruction. It seems odd that just 1 valar could reek such havoc. I like to look at it as Melkor going against the forces of nature, thinking and acting as if the world was there for his benefit, to corrupt and pillage for his use only. The other valar are repairing the damage, healing the wounds. This may be simplifying it a lot, but to me this chapter speaks of the connection we have with the earth that sustains us. I like to think that no matter how destructive and obtrusive we are, given enough time, the forces of nature can heal the damage. __________________ "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know." Last edited by Elvet : 12-03-2002 at 10:42 PM.

12-03-2002, 11:32 PM	#12
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	Whoops! My son was logged on! That last post was actually mine - I had forgotten my son logged me off to check his PMs! __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva!

12-02-2002, 10:29 PM	#4
Keith K Elf Lord Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: charlotte, n.c. Posts: 1,081	In creating his mythology it seems that Tolkien borrowed heavily from other, existing mythologies. The extended family of Valar and Maiar is similar to the gods and goddesses of ancient Greece and Rome. The fall of Melkor is similar to the fall of Satan in Christian mythology. As the Sil unfolds into later chapters elements from Norse mythology can be seen. On the whole, the chapter serves as a means to present a list of the movers and shakers in Valinor. There's not much action or even scene setting going on in it. Just a cast of characters without any bells or whistles.

12-03-2002, 06:47 AM	#6
Keith K Elf Lord Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: charlotte, n.c. Posts: 1,081	If I had to pick a favorite Vala it would be Ulmo. He is the most active in the affairs of ME at least, with his waters flowing over and under the earth. At least he does something. The rest of em seem to be so passive....not much of a story there.

12-03-2002, 11:30 PM	#11
Meriadoc Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: RÃan's house! Posts: 19	As I put together the sibling/spouse list, I found it interesting that Ulmo was the only one without either a sibling or a spouse, and he's the one that's usually ends up acting alone, and "dwells nowhere long". The other unusual one was Nienna, the only one of the Valier that had no spouse, but then again, she had TWO brothers! I think that relationships are very powerful and meaningful, and perhaps that's why Tolkien gave the Valar siblings and spouses - for comfort, encouragement, assistance, etc. And I like how the pairings are - air and stars; earth and fruit of the earth; keeper of the Houses of the Dead and recorder of the deeds of the dead; master of visions and dreams with the healer and giver of rest; the valiant fighter with the exhuberent dancer. The only one that doesn't match up so well in my mind is Orome and Vana - the serious hunter with the flower-opener. Maybe it corresponds with the passage in Ecclesiates about "a time for war and a time for peace". Y'know, SGH, I think Melkor was never "assigned" an area, like you said, I suppose because he rebelled even before the world was actually created. I'll try to find something on that (or anyone else, too). But he is associated with fire somehow, I'll try to find that too.

12-04-2002, 09:02 PM	#15
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	No, I think you're right, but I haven't had time to look it up yet - anyone else know? or I'll look later tonight ... I'm speed-posting right now, because it's finish-homework-time and prepare-dinner-time... __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva!

12-05-2002, 02:12 PM	#19
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	RIAN!!!! Where's my big stick? WHAP! __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

12-05-2002, 02:28 PM	#20
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	(Gets in the way) Go back to the shadow with your stick, Sister Golden Hair! YOU SHALL NOT PASSS!!!!!!!