who would win???

[noldorlord]

Gimli vs. groin???

rainbow, who the hell is groin, it sounds like part of the anatomy to me, do you mean gloin? Father vs son in a battle to the death?

Going for larger battles, Rohan vs Gondor???

[Andúril]

Groin is Gimli's uncle, Gloin's long forgotten brother. He works at Burger King.

[The White Rider]

What if Gimli and Leagolas turned against each other (!Leagolas!)
Fangorn attacks Gimli on his stay there (Fangorn)
Gimli turns on Aragorn (Aragorn)

You can tell I don't like Gimli

[markedel]

Actually Illuvatar is not an Ainur, he's God. So It doesn't really work out.

The Bullroarer vs. Merry

Glauraung vs. Smaug

[markedel]

Elrond vs Elros

Elrond+Elros vs. Earendil

[Andúril]

Glaurung vs Smaug : Definitely Smaug, as he could fly, thus launching aerial attacks.

Elrond vs Elros : Elrond. He is an elf-lord (well, half-elven), thus practises some magic (art), is quite strong, is fast, should have quicker reaction times, and is less susceptible to wear and tear. Elros, although first king of Numenor (I think?), he had to forego some of these abilities. Or did he?

Elrond+Elros vs. Earendil : Earendil. He has a flying boat. Elrond and Elros would have to jump quite high to cause some type of damage. Earendil would just knock them over with is boat. During a loop-de-loop.

[afro-elf]

anduril

visualizing that combat vs. father and sons was quite hilarious

[Cirdan]

I thought that Glaurung was the baddest dragon ever. Like the Ungoliant to Shelob; the first is the worst. Wasting Nargothrond was no small task.

[Kwijibo]

Ok, wot about these?

Sauron vs. the Witch King
The One Ring vs. Nenya, Vilya or Narya (your preference)
Smaug vs. The Balrog
Saruman vs. Sauron

Sting vs. Glamdring
Sting vs. Narsil (before it shattered)
Sting vs. Anduril (after reforged)
Bill The Pony vs. Shadowfax (i'm being stupid now, right? )

[Andúril]

Afro Elf : If you were watching from about a mile away, you'd see two objects jumping roughly six metres into the air. They would never jump straight up - always slightly skew, so it would seem that they have a case of the random bouncies. Earnedil would soon stop rolling around on the deck of his ship and overcome his laughter, then hit each elf at the height of the bouces. They would fly damn far. And probably keep bouncing.

Cirdan : I thinl Ancalagon(sp) the Black was actually the most formidable dragon. Glaurung was a big fat worm (Powerful nonetheless) He led a train of Balrogs for Morgoth, but he was constrained to fighting on the ground.

Kwijibo : Sauron vs Witch King : C'mon!! Sauron any day.
The One Ring kicks all rings asses.
The Balrog from Khazad-Dum would destroy Smaug in the end I think, but it would be close seeing as Smaug could fly.
Glamdring would whip Sting (sword fit for a maia)
Sting would lose against both Narsil and myself. I don't think Sting was really that great.

Bill vs Shadofax : Yes.

[Cirdan]

Anduril: You are correct about ancalagon being the "greatest", yet he appears only once and is slain by Earendil. I think greatest in this case means largest. His battle stats don't compare with Glaurung's. Does size matter for dragons?

[markedel]

Elendil vs. Aragorn

Tag Team match

Helm+Theoden vs. Anarion and Isildur

Tar-Palantir vs. Tar-Elendil

[Ararax]

peter jackson vs george lucas

[Andúril]

Ok, so now I am having a serious discussion with my brother about one-on-one combat.

He seems to think that Sauron was the most powerful Maia. I doubt this, I think that Sauron, and Gothmog, and all the other Maiar who followed Morgoth were initially quite powerful, but Morgoth transmuted his spirit among them, lessening his own, and upgrading theirs. Thus Sauron and his "companions" grew more powerful.

The Silmarillian says that Eonwe was unsurpassed in arms in all of Arda. What does that mean ? That he chose to go in a flesh form, and was by fellow maia unstoppable in war and combat? I think so. Eonwe is listed with Ilmarie as being the chief of the Maiar, so this Ilmarie must be quite hardcore aswell, although I think her might would be in spirit and will.

If Sauron was the most powerful maia, his name would have been listed there, and not one like Eonwe. Or was Eonwe the most powerful of the "good guys", as identified in "Of the Maiar". I wonder about this because Sauron, the other balrogs and corrupted spirits are mentioned under "Of the Enemies", thus implying that Sauron was the most powerful of the "bad guys".

Besides this, the Silmarillian says under "Of the Maiar" that Eonwe and Ilmarie were the chief "among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered" and also "...few have names in any of the tongues ...." This implies that there might have been even more powerful Maiar than those mentioned.

And what about the rest of the Ainur dwelling with Iluvatar? Who's to say that there exists some Maiar there that are more powerful than Eonwe, but just didn't come down to Arda? Likewise for a more poweful Vala than Manwe/(Melkor in his beginning)?

But I am really interested in Sauron, and I have a tendency of matching him up with Olorin. Don't know why, but it always has been that way. Olorin vs Sauron, in the west, unhindered, and before Sauron received a power boost from his master?? This I MUST know!!! I reckon Olorin+ Curumo could have easily taken Sauron on his own.

And what about the two types of power? Spiritual and physical. Sauron at 1600 SA would have reached the height of his physical power, I think (could be wrong), but he was killed by Isildur, a man (Numenorean notwithstanding).

Another matchup might be Gothmog vs Sauron. I think Gothmog would kill Sauron in physical combat, because Gothmog was a "combat" creature, and Sauron was at first a "spiritual" leader, or someone who just orders everyone around through his inherent power.

But answers I need!! Help please!!

[afro-elf]

Wow that is quite a lot to ponder over. I'll take a stab at just a few .

I reckon Olorin+ Curumo could have easily taken Sauron on his own.

I know that olorin didn't wanna to come to ME because he feared Sauron.

and he came west in TA 1000 well after sauron lost his ring

So I'd say Sauron

oops I see that you said olorin PLUS curumo. I'm still unsure. I'll stick to Sauron

as for EONWE the greatest in arms too be means the greatest SKILL in armed combat not necessarily the most powerful.

Power CAN over come skill AND vice versa

Good questions my friend

[MasterMothra]

good post anduril.

i happen to agree with your brother though. i don't think there is any doubt that sauron is the most powerful mair there is. sauron, with age, matured his evil ways, thus becoming more powerful.

being the chief of the mair does'nt exactly mean being the most powerful. melkor was the most powerful of the valar(ainur) but he was'nt the chief of the valar.

other mair, those dwelling with illuvitar, could have very well been more powerful than sauron. but in middle earth sauron was the mair. as far as the valar(ainur) were concerned, melkor was supreme. the most powerful of the ainur left for middle earth, so there are none more powerful than melkor or manwe.

olorin and curumo ,on thier best day and sauron's worst, could not have taken sauron. sauron is war tested, he has killed some pretty formidable opponents, ie gil galad and elendil. as far as isildur killing sauron, he did'nt. if he did there would be no lotr. lets be honest, isildur got lucky when he cut the ring from sauron's hand. if not for that ,sauron would have decimated the last alliance. sauron lost a great deal of his power when the ring was gone. i think that he compensated for this with increased mental(spiritual) ability. he evolved to the point that i think he was most powerful. he did'nt need to conquer by brute force, he used cunning and deception instead, but if needed he could still swing a weapon with the best of them. with increased mental(spiritual) abilities and the ring ,he would have been unstopable, quite possibly the most powerful being ever in me.

i think sauron could have killed gothmog, would be rough though.

as far as the most powerful mair i would rate:
1. sauron
2. gandalf

imoho

looking back i think this is the logest post i've ever written. yikes.

[Ararax]

gandalf did killa balrog while in his human form, so to say he was untested isnt true but i think with the ring no maiar could have stood against sauron but gandalf in his maiar form may have been able to take sauron with out his ring and no nazgul, but i think the combind might of gilgad elron elendil isudur who through their combind might brought sauron low enough so that isudur could have cut the ring banishing sauron for the moment the king of the nazgul was powerful enough to worry gandalf, the might of the maiar is not that much over the power of men and elves so in sufficiant #s and power men could over come a maiar,

[Andúril]

Thanks for the replies.

The reason I think the chances of Olorin were better against Sauron than others think, is that he knew if he was to face Sauron in Middle-earth, he would be constrained to his Istari policy: no matched power, lead free people of ME against Sauron, don't show true power etc. This IMO is why he stated in Valinor that he feared Sauron, probably not because Sauron was WAY more powerful than him, but because he knew he was going to limited in might, he would be up against a much more poweful opponent, thus easier to kill.

I'd like to bring up an issue regarding the Gandalf vs Balrog fight. We know that the two fought for a couple days until reaching the top of some peak (can't remember the name - something like Zirak-Zagul LOL). My recollection of all this is foggy, so some details might be incorrect. Did Gandalf push the Balrog over the edge, and the Balrog hit the side of the mountain? Gandalf then passed away, from wounds. Now what does that tell you? That Gandalf is more powerful than a Balrog? No, it tells you that Balroggie slipped or was pushed off the peak (obviously with some kind of magical power), and it fell to its death. Ok we all know that Balrogs can't fly, but thats not the point. The point is that IMO the balrog was winning at that point. Gandalf was lucky, but virtually dead. Balroggie was just unlucky. Maybe if the passage had been written with slightly more detail we might have had a picture of the balrogs state before falling, thus giving us a good indication of the fight.

We that all proves to me at least, is that Gandalf the Grey had the majority of his power locked away in spirit, and the minority in physical strength. The balrog was the opposite: majority in physical strength, and minority in spirit. So in combat, without "magic", we know which one would win. Obviously Gandalf the White had the capability of showing more of his true nature through his given physical form. But who's to say that all combat involved JUST physical strength? We know that is not the case ALL the time, as in Finrod vs Sauron, but can we at least agree that combat was for the most part physical?

Morgoth vs Fingolfin. I think by that stage Morgoth was unable to change his shape; he had disseminated the larger part of his power through others/Arda. Thus constrained to the physical, Morgoth did not even have enough strength to heal those seven wounds Fingolfy inflicted on him. But when it came to physical strength, Morgoth all the way.

This might be a huge mistake, but I don't think,or at least can't remember, if Sauron ever fought in war other than in the last alliance. He was always in a leadership position, in control of his minions, not actually on the battlefield. And when he eventually fought on the battlefield, he had reached the height of his power with the One Ring. I can't remember exact details, but I think Elendil and Gil-galad were burnt to death by his body heat, and Isildur inflicted the mortal wound eventually, which says to me that Isildur fought him, and won, killing Sauron's incarnated body. He only cut off the finger AFTER he had killed the Dark Lord. PLEASE correct me if I am mistaken...

And slightly off track, what was that about Gollum seeing Sauron's hands with nine fingers only, I thought Sauron could not regain shape right through until the War of the Ring!! Oh well, maybe he had some sort of shape in Dol-Guldur, or when he Gollum was initially in Mordor. But the fact that he could not heal his physical body completely shows me that he did not have enough spiritual power to invest in it (or perhaps it wasn't neccesary, in that he would rather invest it in weather, orcs, and the palantir, etc, so he had other priorities).

Umm Ararax : I think that when with the whole Gandalf vs Witch-King thing, Gandalf was concerned because he was Gandalf, not Olorin. Even Gandalf the White was contrained - still nowhere near proper strength. Unlike the baddies, Olorin did not have to invest his spiritual power in reincarnating himself, that I think was either left up to Eru, or the Valar. Had he been good old normal Olorin, the Nazgul not have bothered him in the slightest.
While in sufficient numbers, men probably would have been able to take on a maia (someone like, oh I dunno, Radagast), but remember Arien? She was the maia who took the fruit of one of the Two Trees, and she was the only one able to withstand the heat. No Eldar could withstand the light of her eyes.

Anyway I have rambled on long enough....

[afro-elf]

I know that Glorfindel and his balrog both fell to their deaths.
I don't recall if gandalf's did

I "BELIEVE" that the sauron thing went this way
Gil-galad and elendil fought against him. they inflict great wounds upon each other. Aeglios (sp?) strikes Sauron ( excalibur style) and Sauron burns Gil to death. elendil sauron strike with similtaneous blows. killing each other.

Cirdan,Elrond and, Isildur watch the final fight. With his fathers broken blade he cuts the ring finger off.


I do not think it is ever mentiioned that isildur fought with sauron.

IF so could you find and quote where?

[Cirdan]

Gandalf and his balrog fell into water which extiguished the Balrog. Gandalf chased him up the eddless stair to durin's tower on top of the mountain. They fought amid a thunder snow (lightning and ice) after which gandalf threw the balrog down the mountain. The Balrog was slimy when not lit; reminds me of a college roomate I once had