who would win??? - Page 2

MasterMothra · 02-27-2002, 08:45 PM

sauron(with the ring) vs. morgoth- could go either way, morg is my pic.

morgoth vs. manwe-straight up, i go with morg

Ñólendil · 02-27-2002, 10:40 PM

Tolkien said Sauron was more powerful in II 1600 than Morgoth was at the end of the First Age.

MasterMothra · 02-28-2002, 12:05 AM

you probably right but i go with morg because he is an ainur.
plus, he fought elves and men in the golden age of middle earth.
sauron's foes were not as heavily armed and probably had much fewer numbers than morgoth's did .

Andúril · 02-28-2002, 04:19 AM

Sauron was also Ainur, along with all the other maiar.

noldorlord · 02-28-2002, 04:12 PM

sorry Anduril, but Sauron was a Maiar, not an Ainur. Morgoth was an Ainur and Sauron was his servant.

Elf Girl · 02-28-2002, 05:17 PM

Weren't all of them ainur, and than some became Valar and some became maiar?

MasterMothra · 03-01-2002, 01:40 AM

well sauron was an mair, an ainur of lesser degree than valar. so i stand corrected. i also like sauron's character, but 1 on 1 i think the old master would win, he did slay fingolfin in single combat. he could fight if he had to.

Andúril · 03-01-2002, 01:27 PM

sorry noldorlord, but Sauron was an Ainur, just like all the other Valar and Maiar. Jeeez....

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 03-01-2002, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anduril
sorry noldorlord, but Sauron was an Ainur, just like all the other Valar and Maiar. Jeeez....

That is correct. Sauron was however of a lesser order than Morgoth. Morgoth was Vala, while Sauron was Maia. Maiar were less powerful than Valar.

As for pitting Morgoth against Manwe, that is a tough one, but I think Manwe would win in the end. Even if Morgoth is more powerful, I have always been taught that Good will always triumph over evil.

Ñólendil · 03-01-2002, 09:19 PM

I think it depends on which stage in Morgoth's 'life' we're talking about here. By the War of Wrath, Morgoth just had no chance against any of the Valar, he was too dispersed.

Bacchus · 03-03-2002, 06:33 AM

One other thing to consider is the element of chance inherent in these battles. On paper, Morgoth vs. Fingolfin, T&ugraverin vs. Glaurung, and Ecthelion vs. Gothmog (not to mention Merry+Eowyn vs. Witch King) all look like no-brainers, but all had outcomes that were surprising to one degree or another.

noldorlord · 03-03-2002, 05:02 PM

apologies, I got it wrong, sorry
got mixed up with my terminology

Liviaine · 03-04-2002, 12:05 AM

Sauron vs. Morgoth: Morgoth

Legolas vs. Gimli: Legolas

Arwen vs. Galadriel vs. Eowyn: Galadriel or Eowyn, but Galadriel because she's an elf.

Curufinwe · 03-04-2002, 01:07 AM

Melkor would take Manwe being the most powerful of all beings (assuming he regains his former strength, which Tolkein in Morgoth's ring suggested he would over time)

noldorlord · 03-06-2002, 08:50 AM

shelob vs treebeard???
prob. treebeard because he kicks ass

rainbow · 03-06-2002, 03:51 PM

Gimli vs. groin???

as 4 merry vs. pippen sooooooooo pippen though it could b quite close

afro-elf · 03-06-2002, 05:21 PM

For me the tough choices are Galadriel vs. Gandalf vs Tom B. vs. Sauron . Vs. Fingolfin Vs Feanor

For Humans Hurin Vs. Elendil Vs. Ar-pharazon

Gala was of the greatest house of the Noldor, dwelt in Aman, and I BELIEVE Tolkien mentioned that Feanor had no greater rival.

I leave it for Inoldonil, SHG, MM or Wayfarer to varify that ( last point) if they so desire.

It also seems that the greatest of the Eldar could beat some of the Maia, such as Balrogs.

Gandalf was maia, who quite reluctant to go to ME because he feared Sauron. Now Gandalf packed quite a wallup and fought a balrog for several days. ( a side note does that make him less or more powerful than Ecthelion and Glorfindel who I don't think fought the demons for days)

I believe that Tom, as a Maia , was powerful but he was too absent minded and a focused and tenacious opponent would take him.

Yes, Tolkien states tha Sauron was more powerful in S.A. 1600 than Melkor at the end of the 1st age.

But, does that mean physical might? Or in some type of presence.

The Valar had to actually physically destroy a great portion of ME to beat Melkor.

So by causing great catastrophes they beat him down so his "power "was lessened over time.

Sauron had "political" power that seemed to sway over a greater area than Melkor had.

But as far as physical whoop ass I don't think he was ever truly a match for his master at anytime.

But, Fingolfin battle with Melkor was awesome. He wounded the "GOD" of evil with seven wounds that NEVER healed. And is a testiment to the amount of person power he had to eternally wound a "god".

Feanor was !@#$%^&* imbued with greatness. Sort of like Napolean, and Ghengis Khan mixed with Leanardo Da Vinci and Michaelangelo.

It would be an interesting death cage match.

Mortals

Hurin was( arguably) the greatest human warrior ever. He killed 70 trolls as the elven forces retreated ( fled)

I have a hard time seeing most beings single handedly doing that.

Ar-pharazon seemed to have the full might of Numenor in his veins but was tainted with darkness.

Elendil ( with Gil-galad) stood against Sauron.

afro-elf · 03-06-2002, 05:28 PM

sorry SHG

I know Finrod is your boy and I like him too. He battled Sauron in a song of power and broke his bonds to kill a werewolf with his barehands after being enslaved for who knows how long.

BUT he was bested. I think he would be the next level of greatness like, Maedhros, Fingon, Gil-galad. and the re-embodied Glorfindel ( I think tolkein say that his power was increased when he returned to ME)

afro-elf · 03-06-2002, 06:15 PM

To add to the mix.

What about Luithein Vs.Melian Vs. Suraman Vs the Witch King Vs Earendil Vs. Dior

Lui bested Melkor "the god of evil" in a song of power in his own fortress while he sat upon his own thrown.

Melian none broke her girdle, save Beren by fate and Thingol for other reasons

Saruman WAS the most powerful of the istari

The Nazgul when revealed in his full might was quite powerful.

You needed magic blades to harm him and he was about to engage gandalf the WHITE in battle after Grond broke the gates of Minas Tirith

Earendil slew the Ancalagon greatest of the winged Dragons

Dior stood against 3 sons of Feanor

In team match with

Melkor, Sauron, Saruman( at the time he captured Gandalf), The 12 Balrogs( this interpretation), and the 9 Nazgul = 24 one side

vs

Melian, Luithein, Galadriel,

Feanor, Fingolfin,Finrod, Maedhros, Fingon, Gil-galad, Mablung, Beleg,Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Earendil, Dior, Turgon, Orodeth,Gandalf, Cirdan, Elrond,Gwindor,Azaghal, Hurin, and Elendil

I say the good guys( and girls) would win.

for you smarty pants concerning Melkor he could lose his form ala sauron

Cirdan · 03-06-2002, 11:33 PM

Cage match... Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf vs Sauron, Suruman, and a Balrog.

Galadriel takes Celeborn (she bears one of the three Elven Rings)

Merry was big but I'll take the battle hardened Frodo (that which does not kill us makes us strong)

Feanor (w/ silmarils) Over the Ungoliant (Ungoliantphobia)

Illuvatar vs Melkor (take that bad boy to the celestial woodshed!)

02-27-2002, 08:45 PM	#21
MasterMothra Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: utumno and angband Posts: 241	sauron(with the ring) vs. morgoth- could go either way, morg is my pic. morgoth vs. manwe-straight up, i go with morg __________________ "........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon.

02-27-2002, 10:40 PM	#22
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Tolkien said Sauron was more powerful in II 1600 than Morgoth was at the end of the First Age. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

02-28-2002, 12:05 AM	#23
MasterMothra Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: utumno and angband Posts: 241	you probably right but i go with morg because he is an ainur. plus, he fought elves and men in the golden age of middle earth. sauron's foes were not as heavily armed and probably had much fewer numbers than morgoth's did . __________________ "........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. Last edited by MasterMothra : 02-28-2002 at 12:12 AM.

02-28-2002, 04:12 PM	#25
noldorlord Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: derbyshire, england Posts: 42	sorry Anduril, but Sauron was a Maiar, not an Ainur. Morgoth was an Ainur and Sauron was his servant. __________________ "fly you fools" - Gandalf

02-28-2002, 05:17 PM	#26
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	Weren't all of them ainur, and than some became Valar and some became maiar? __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

02-28-2002, 04:19 AM	#24
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	Sauron was also Ainur, along with all the other maiar.

03-01-2002, 01:40 AM	#27
MasterMothra Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: utumno and angband Posts: 241	well sauron was an mair, an ainur of lesser degree than valar. so i stand corrected. i also like sauron's character, but 1 on 1 i think the old master would win, he did slay fingolfin in single combat. he could fight if he had to. __________________ "........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon.

03-01-2002, 01:27 PM	#28
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	sorry noldorlord, but Sauron was an Ainur, just like all the other Valar and Maiar. Jeeez....

03-01-2002, 09:19 PM	#30
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I think it depends on which stage in Morgoth's 'life' we're talking about here. By the War of Wrath, Morgoth just had no chance against any of the Valar, he was too dispersed. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

03-03-2002, 06:33 AM	#31
Bacchus Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Houston TX USA Posts: 245	One other thing to consider is the element of chance inherent in these battles. On paper, Morgoth vs. Fingolfin, T&ugraverin vs. Glaurung, and Ecthelion vs. Gothmog (not to mention Merry+Eowyn vs. Witch King) all look like no-brainers, but all had outcomes that were surprising to one degree or another. __________________ Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

03-03-2002, 05:02 PM	#32
noldorlord Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: derbyshire, england Posts: 42	apologies, I got it wrong, sorry got mixed up with my terminology __________________ "fly you fools" - Gandalf

03-04-2002, 12:05 AM	#33
Liviaine Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Ithilien Posts: 203	Sauron vs. Morgoth: Morgoth Legolas vs. Gimli: Legolas Arwen vs. Galadriel vs. Eowyn: Galadriel or Eowyn, but Galadriel because she's an elf.

03-04-2002, 01:07 AM	#34
Curufinwe Enting Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: New England Posts: 59	Melkor would take Manwe being the most powerful of all beings (assuming he regains his former strength, which Tolkein in Morgoth's ring suggested he would over time)

03-06-2002, 08:50 AM	#35
noldorlord Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: derbyshire, england Posts: 42	shelob vs treebeard??? prob. treebeard because he kicks ass __________________ "fly you fools" - Gandalf

03-06-2002, 03:51 PM	#36
rainbow Enting Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: in my head Posts: 61	Gimli vs. groin??? as 4 merry vs. pippen sooooooooo pippen though it could b quite close __________________ smile & be happy (frodo lives) BANANERISM RULES!!!!! the spotty dog chases its tail till all its spots fall off!

03-06-2002, 05:21 PM	#37
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	For me the tough choices are Galadriel vs. Gandalf vs Tom B. vs. Sauron . Vs. Fingolfin Vs Feanor For Humans Hurin Vs. Elendil Vs. Ar-pharazon Gala was of the greatest house of the Noldor, dwelt in Aman, and I BELIEVE Tolkien mentioned that Feanor had no greater rival. I leave it for Inoldonil, SHG, MM or Wayfarer to varify that ( last point) if they so desire. It also seems that the greatest of the Eldar could beat some of the Maia, such as Balrogs. Gandalf was maia, who quite reluctant to go to ME because he feared Sauron. Now Gandalf packed quite a wallup and fought a balrog for several days. ( a side note does that make him less or more powerful than Ecthelion and Glorfindel who I don't think fought the demons for days) I believe that Tom, as a Maia , was powerful but he was too absent minded and a focused and tenacious opponent would take him. Yes, Tolkien states tha Sauron was more powerful in S.A. 1600 than Melkor at the end of the 1st age. But, does that mean physical might? Or in some type of presence. The Valar had to actually physically destroy a great portion of ME to beat Melkor. So by causing great catastrophes they beat him down so his "power "was lessened over time. Sauron had "political" power that seemed to sway over a greater area than Melkor had. But as far as physical whoop ass I don't think he was ever truly a match for his master at anytime. But, Fingolfin battle with Melkor was awesome. He wounded the "GOD" of evil with seven wounds that NEVER healed. And is a testiment to the amount of person power he had to eternally wound a "god". Feanor was !@#$%^&* imbued with greatness. Sort of like Napolean, and Ghengis Khan mixed with Leanardo Da Vinci and Michaelangelo. It would be an interesting death cage match. Mortals Hurin was( arguably) the greatest human warrior ever. He killed 70 trolls as the elven forces retreated ( fled) I have a hard time seeing most beings single handedly doing that. Ar-pharazon seemed to have the full might of Numenor in his veins but was tainted with darkness. Elendil ( with Gil-galad) stood against Sauron. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-06-2002, 05:28 PM	#38
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	sorry SHG I know Finrod is your boy and I like him too. He battled Sauron in a song of power and broke his bonds to kill a werewolf with his barehands after being enslaved for who knows how long. BUT he was bested. I think he would be the next level of greatness like, Maedhros, Fingon, Gil-galad. and the re-embodied Glorfindel ( I think tolkein say that his power was increased when he returned to ME) __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 03-06-2002 at 05:29 PM.

03-06-2002, 06:15 PM	#39
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	To add to the mix. What about Luithein Vs.Melian Vs. Suraman Vs the Witch King Vs Earendil Vs. Dior Lui bested Melkor "the god of evil" in a song of power in his own fortress while he sat upon his own thrown. Melian none broke her girdle, save Beren by fate and Thingol for other reasons Saruman WAS the most powerful of the istari The Nazgul when revealed in his full might was quite powerful. You needed magic blades to harm him and he was about to engage gandalf the WHITE in battle after Grond broke the gates of Minas Tirith Earendil slew the Ancalagon greatest of the winged Dragons Dior stood against 3 sons of Feanor In team match with Melkor, Sauron, Saruman( at the time he captured Gandalf), The 12 Balrogs( this interpretation), and the 9 Nazgul = 24 one side vs Melian, Luithein, Galadriel, Feanor, Fingolfin,Finrod, Maedhros, Fingon, Gil-galad, Mablung, Beleg,Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Earendil, Dior, Turgon, Orodeth,Gandalf, Cirdan, Elrond,Gwindor,Azaghal, Hurin, and Elendil I say the good guys( and girls) would win. for you smarty pants concerning Melkor he could lose his form ala sauron __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-06-2002, 11:33 PM	#40
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Cage match... Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf vs Sauron, Suruman, and a Balrog. Galadriel takes Celeborn (she bears one of the three Elven Rings) Merry was big but I'll take the battle hardened Frodo (that which does not kill us makes us strong) Feanor (w/ silmarils) Over the Ungoliant (Ungoliantphobia) Illuvatar vs Melkor (take that bad boy to the celestial woodshed!)