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10-04-2004, 05:16 PM
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#1 |
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Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Why you believe what you believe
OK, the candy sale madness at the kids' school is dying down, and my mind is free to turn to more philosophical subjects than how many cases of candy so-and-so sold, and did she qualify for the big barbeque or not, and things of that ilk, so I am finally starting the thread that I've thought about starting for a long time, and kind of half-started in other threads - the Why you believe what you believe thread.
If anyone's interested, let's go at it!  If not, then it will die a quiet death at the bottom of the GMs, because unlike Gandalf, I don't like talking to myself!  SO - what I was thinking of was that different people can take turns in the "hot seat" and field questions from others on their general worldview beliefs, and their reasons behind holding those beliefs, and what sub-beliefs can be derived from their worldview beliefs, and so on. I'd like this to be really vigorous, no-holds-barred discussion, but polite and considerate. We've tackled some hot issues before in this manner, so it can be done!  ANY question is valid, as long as it's framed in a considerate way.Mainly what I'm thinking about are what I would call, I guess, "top-level" worldview beliefs, which would be things like Christianity, Buddhism (I'm hoping to lure Ñólendil here ), atheism, agnosticism, and things like that, because from what I can tell, our beliefs on most issues are based on what worldview belief we hold. So I would like to discuss why people hold these top-level worldview beliefs. Anyone interested? I'll volunteer to go first, if no one else wants to. I never am bothered by sincere questions, and I'll tackle any question anyone wants to throw at me, and give it an honest answer (and BTW, "I don't know" is certainly a valid answer, if it's true). And I'm hoping others will do the same. (Altho I would also like to say that people are free to just ask questions and not answer them if they don't want to, but I'm hoping for lots of volunteers to sit in the hot seat).EDIT - one more note - I do NOT want this to be some silly debate - I hate the idea of debate for the sake of debating! I would like this to be a really open, truthful discussion, with the intent of finding things out and exploring thoughts and ideas and being willing to be totally openminded and honest and have your own worldview challenged and examined by others and being able to explain your own worldview. That's how I'm gonna handle it, and I hope everyone else will, too
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?*"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 10-04-2004 at 05:24 PM. |
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10-04-2004, 06:43 PM
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#2 |
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Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
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Heh! I'll go first!
I am an atheist. I believe there is no afterlife. No god being. When we die, our energy is recycled just like plants on the compost pile. How we (or anything) came to be...I (very unfortunately  ) don't know...but but I believe eons of time, space, and seemingly infinite reactions of all sorts have given rise to much that is. |
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10-04-2004, 06:57 PM
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#3 |
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Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Are you willing to take questions from us, Lizra?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?*"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-04-2004, 07:03 PM
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#4 |
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Lady Tipple & Queen of Blessed Thistle
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: I've been told it's all in my head
Posts: 916
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sooooo large
QUOTE=Lizra]Heh! I'll go first!
I am an atheist. I believe there is no afterlife. No god being. When we die, our energy is recycled just like plants on the compost pile. [/QUOTE] Salute to the first brave soul (Lizra), who staunchly strides into the fray . . . Hey Lizra, glad you posted. You answered the "what" concerning what you believe. Now, for the fun part, but "why"? QUOTE=Lizra]How we (or anything) came to be...I (very unfortunately ) don't know...but but I believe eons of time, space, and seemingly infinite reactions of all sorts have given rise to much that is.[/QUOTE]The universe is sooooo large, understanding any of it seems unlikely. Oy!! You just gave me an idea for another thead! TTFN  BTW--how do I use the quotes like everyone else, I colored the font, at least, hehe.
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Beer + Pizza = N'uff said  Happy to be here The HACBR has been alerted to my postings…..Hobbits Against Constant Beer References Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Ben Franklin I want my Mooter T-Shirt!
Last edited by EarthBound : 10-04-2004 at 07:04 PM. |
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10-04-2004, 07:07 PM
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#5 |
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Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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( you need to put an open bracket before the first "quote=Lizra" - you only have a close bracket.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?*"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-04-2004, 08:14 PM
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the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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What Lizra said. I swing between atheism and agnosticism, depending on my mood. Strong proponent for The Theory of Evolution, not sure about the Big Bang, but not sure what else it could have been.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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10-04-2004, 08:23 PM
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#7 |
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Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,423
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Let's see...now that the moring sickness has subsided I feel like I can enjoy mooting again!
anywho, I am a Christian (Catholic to be specific) andI suppose I believe what I believe b/c I was brought up by my mom this way. My dad is Christian but almost the opposite of Catholic. I suppose it wasn't until I was around 17 that I really accepted it mainly b/c I went to Catholic high school and we took religion classes which helped to explain all the aspects of the Catholic faith. I think it was meant to educate and allowing kids to either accept or reject the faith on their own. |
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10-04-2004, 10:11 PM
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#8 |
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Enting
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Somewhere between heaven and hell
Posts: 73
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First, to Arien. I guess I always wondered about why Catholics always do so much tradition and ceremony compared to Protestants (well most Protestants
). I don't think that it's wrong (Romans 14), but I want to know why Catholics think it's right.Next, to BoP and Lizra. Why do you think that there is no God? I don't know if this is what you believe or not, but I have found that a lot of people believe that there is no God because they believe in evolution. My dad is an atheist and a biologist and my mom is a Christian so I have a good understanding of both sides. There is nothing in the Theory of Evolution and the Big Bang that excludes God and says that he doesn't exist. There is nothing in the Bible that says that evolution didn't take place. Some people take the Bible too literally. I am a Christian that believes in evolution. If you don't believe in God for some other reason, that's fine. I just don't like it when someone thinks that they can't believe in God because evolution makes sense to them. I'd love to explain this more if anyone else is interested.
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Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering? I think so Brain, but without ears, we look like weasels. "The next time I lent an ax to a surgeon, I would pick my century." A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. The Last Alliance of Orcs and Spiders |
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10-04-2004, 11:07 PM
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#9 |
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Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
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I'll take questions.
Why do I believe what I do? Because my simplistic belief that the world is merely what it appears seems to be the most likely imo, and an honest assessment. You can't lie to yourself (at least I can't) so trying to convince myself of any number of these crazy religions just doesn't work. IMO, to believe anything other than what I see and understand to be true would be foolish. Super beings (gods) just seem preposterous, and an afterlife...fanciful wishful thinking. |
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10-04-2004, 11:19 PM
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#10 |
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Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Wait, guys - the idea I had, when I started this thread, was to let one person at a time be asked questions, and Lizra was first. Is that OK with everyone? I wanted to have this kind of atmosphere like Lizra was sitting in a chair with us all around her asking her questions, because sometimes one person's question will get someone else thinking and they'll want to ask a question from a different angle, and there can get to be a real interesting discussion, and we can go deeper than if we all just fire off questions to anyone. Do you see what I mean?
Is that OK with everyone in general, or should we all just fire away at anyone?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?*"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-05-2004, 01:54 AM
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The Dude
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: at the altar of my ego
Posts: 1,685
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Quote:
Quote:
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Ill heal your wounds, ill set you free, |
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10-05-2004, 04:10 AM
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High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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Lizra - if I could add another question or two or three (and maybe this could become part of the routine?):
Have you pretty much 'always' believed this way? At least since you began to think abstractly? (what do the education experts say on that... by 12 or 13 maybe?) If not, what did you believe before that? And... what led you to change your mind?
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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10-05-2004, 08:36 AM
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#13 |
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Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
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Ok...
Millane, I feel my beliefs come more from my reasoning. Yes, I use my senses to gather info, that is what people do, but I use my reasoning to separate fact from fiction, and I go with my realistic conclusion. Valandil, Yes, I pretty much have always believed this way. I went to various churches along the way, and saw no difference between the bible stories and the other fairy tales I didn't actually believe. My parents, non belivers as far as I know, (if they believed in a god or afterlife...it would be "news", they have NEVER talked about god, heaven, or hell) didn't object to my going to church. The saw church as a good way to socialize with "nice" people. My mother STILL thinks I should take the kids to church..."to meet "nice" people".  When I say "Mother, what about the believing in god part?" she rolls her eyes like ...oh pull-eze... that's not important, just play the little game and go....to meet nice people! But I HAVE gone to churches as an adult, and church people take the believing part very seriously. It would just seem rude and hypocritical to go and fakingly "play along", and I am a *serious* woman anyway. I remember the year my brother was killed. I was 14, and wrote a haiku for the school student writings book. It was called "Clear Thoughts on Death". (I might try to find it later, I should be painting right now!  ! ) It was about your energy blending back to the earth, and that was all that death was. Death (IMO) is just the first step in recycling our worn out bodies. Energy is neither made or destroyed, it just shifts around from place to place, right? This observation didn't make me any *more* sad, it just seemed like a fact. When you die, you die...and he was gone, but he certainly was "at peace". How can you not be at peace when you don't exist anymore! Death is a great ending! I do not believe in a soul. We are what our physical bodies make us. Fairly soon after the cells start dividing, through the "magic" of organic chemistry (or something like that  ) a heart beat starts, and a rudimentary brain takes control. These process simply shut down at death...and the "life" is over. IMO, we (and all other life forms) are just specialized energy. We start, we stop. It's seems pretty cut and dry to me, and I can accept this easily enough. Last edited by Lizra : 10-05-2004 at 08:38 AM. |
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10-05-2004, 08:55 AM
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Enting
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Somewhere between heaven and hell
Posts: 73
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Quote:
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Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering? I think so Brain, but without ears, we look like weasels. "The next time I lent an ax to a surgeon, I would pick my century." A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. The Last Alliance of Orcs and Spiders |
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10-05-2004, 08:58 AM
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The Original Corruptor
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,881
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What is a soul and why would you need it to explain music or art?
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10-05-2004, 09:40 AM
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High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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Interesting Lizra.
I'm sorry to hear about your loss of your brother... long ago as it was. Those kinds of things can impact us greatly. Do you think your brother's death shaped your beliefs?
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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10-05-2004, 09:44 AM
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Anyway, snap, Lizra, WRT being a kid and thinking of the bible as the same as Santa Claus and the like. Here's my question for you: Do you believe in truth? I mean, is it possible to have absolute knowledge of anything, and if so, what? Or is everything relative to our individual circumstances, state of mind and perceptions? |
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10-05-2004, 09:59 AM
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Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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interesting thread... my beliefs aren't really based on any worldview... more an eclectic mix... but maybe i'll jump in at some point when the major ones have been covered
if rÃ*an says it's ok
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-05-2004, 02:18 PM
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Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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I'm a Christian as are my whole family.
Lizra: Is there any particular reason why you feel this way?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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10-05-2004, 04:09 PM
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Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
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Oh...I see Anduril beat me to this question. |
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Linear Mode
