"The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien"

bropous · 01-13-2002, 05:44 PM

First, let me ask whether this is the proper spot for points relating to "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien", and if not, O Site Gods, please go ahead and move this to wherever you feel appropriate. May I suggest a new "Master Topic", "J.R.R. Tolkien The Man"?

I have been reading "Letters", and am absolutely fascinated. Not only by observing how his writings came into being, but by the insights into how the man thought.

I would love a spot to discuss his ideas on things like War in genreal, his views on Hitler, and even his take on "football," "sportsmanship," or marriage and the sexes. He says some deeply relevant things in the Letters, and I would love to discuss some of these issues with fellow Mooters and see their views on them.

I was really taken on how he stood up, in 1938, to the idiots at the publishers in Germany who wanted him to basically give evidence of his "ethnic purity" in order to publish "The Hobbit" in German. His response, in part, states:

"But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I have no ancestors of that gifted people [emphasis added].

This is such an incredibly beautiful thing for the Master to say, and I would have loved to have seen the faces of the Nazi Party faithful upon reading these brave words, and moreso, had that paperhanger Hitler himself been shown the Master's derision for his blatant pig-ignorant stupidity.

Tolkien makes some more wonderful comments about Hitler and his type, including, "We knew Hitler was a vulgar and ignorant little cad...". I'd love to discuss some of these comments in further detail with my fellow Mooters, if you folks are of a mood...

Kiri · 01-14-2002, 03:38 PM

I'd say that anybody who would base a good chunk of Middle Earth's history on the Two Kingdoms (Israel and Judea--even as a kid I recognized the allusion in Ardor and Gondor) wouldn't be prone to being too nice to Nazis.

Pailan · 01-15-2002, 04:41 PM

I don't quite understand, as I said in another thread, how neo-facsists could ever embrace Tolkien as supporting their empty headed values. I mean, what are Elves, the master race or something? They are waning and Men are on the rise. What about Dwarves and Hobbits and all the other peoples of Tolkiens imagination? I don't have to go to his letters to know the man was not a facsist. Although he touched on the distrust that grows from misunderstangs i.e. Elves -vs- Dwarves. But he also resolved that too, (see Legolas and Gimli.)

I find those who interpert Tolkien in such a narrow fashion have something massively wrong with their world view. The misappropiation of art for political motives is a scurge we all must fight.

Grrrr.

Gerbil · 02-26-2002, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kiri
I'd say that anybody who would base a good chunk of Middle Earth's history on the Two Kingdoms (Israel and Judea--even as a kid I recognized the allusion in Ardor and Gondor) wouldn't be prone to being too nice to Nazis.

Yer what?
What a load of rubbish. Tolkien meant nothing of the sort.
I'm reading the good man's letters now myself and he goes to great lengths to say there's no allegory on Middle Earth at all.
What you've managed to read into it is purely your own meaning - not his.

Gerbil · 02-26-2002, 06:16 PM

Just had a thought - we could have a thread where people try to 'prove' the most outrageous things ever citing Tolkien's works.

I'm pretty sure you could use his stuff to prove / disprove his belief in-

- Any religion you choose
- Aliens
- Racism
- Sexism
- Homophobia
- Any other -ism you care to mention
- Hentai

- Gerbil is the new messiah (gerbilism)

Personally I'm off to use his works to prove the government can't make me pay taxes.

Laurelyn · 02-26-2002, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gerbil
Personally I'm off to use his works to prove the government can't make me pay taxes.

Now that'll be the day . . .

Wow, I gotta read the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien so I know what you're talking about . . .

MasterMothra · 02-26-2002, 10:04 PM

ive heard of the letters of tolkien but cant find them anywhere. could someone give the full name of the book and where you bought it? as always, thanks in advance for your help.

Starr Polish · 02-26-2002, 10:08 PM

No allegory? I'd have to say no intentional allegory.

I find it very hard to keep my opinions of things out of books, even if they are masked very well

Gerbil · 02-26-2002, 10:16 PM

But if it's not intentional then it's not there - if you read allegory into it it does not make it an allegorical story

bropous · 03-01-2002, 11:29 AM

I agree with the rodent messiah. Tolkien meant no allegorical connection to Israel nor the Bible nor the Stations of the Cross nor Ethel the Aardvark Goes Quantity Surveying.

I don't understand why some folks insist on drawing the ecclesiastic parallels.

Gerbil · 03-01-2002, 11:52 AM

Reading some of his works he does make clear he has been influenced by his religious background, BUT it was not consciously put into his work.

To clarify then - he didn't INTENTIONALLY put any religious overtones into his work - therefore if you see it (which in some cases is possible) then it's NOT INTENTIONAL...

sun-star · 03-02-2002, 04:38 PM

This is a really good thread! I find Tolkien the man very interesting.

Nibs · 03-02-2002, 05:43 PM

Well, any one is free to draw their own "ecclesiastic parallels" (as bropous mentioned) merely for their own use. If I think that the orcs the fellowship encountered could stand as allegorical for the hardships in my life, that's just fine and dandy. However, if I try to impress my opinions upon others, that's when it gets out of hand. The interpretations are for the reader's benefit, and everyone is entitled to their own.

That was my profundity for the day. Whoah, that hits my weekly allotment. No more for you.

Ñólendil · 03-02-2002, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Yer what?
What a load of rubbish. Tolkien meant nothing of the sort.
I'm reading the good man's letters now myself and he goes to great lengths to say there's no allegory on Middle Earth at all.

I don't think Kiri meant that Arnor and Gondor was an allegory. I think he merely meant the two Kingdoms were influenced by Israel and Judea. I know Tolkien did compare Arnor and Gondor a few times to North and South Egypt.

markedel · 03-02-2002, 07:52 PM

He said Numenorian culture is gypt like, and he said Rohan isn't anglo-saxon, and yet...

Ñólendil · 03-03-2002, 12:07 AM

And yet what?

markedel · 03-03-2002, 12:21 AM

Rohan is an anglo-saxon kingdom and gondor is a medieval feudal kingdom.

Starr Polish · 09-29-2002, 07:48 PM

I am so excited! I found a copy of "Letters" and bought it (well, my father bought it for me) yesterday. I've been searching and searching for it, and this was the very first copy I have EVER seen. It is precious to me

I can't seem to find it at the moment, but Tolkien does admit that LOTR is slightly allegorical. He basically said "It is allegory, at first unconcious, but concious as I revised it"...and that is not a direct quote. I will post the direct quote when I find it.

***Rían*** · 09-30-2002, 12:33 AM

"Letters" is fascinating - I'm glad someone brought this thread back up. I'll throw in my 2-cents' worth when I can get a few minutes to find it!

Also, there's so many of us that have HoME books now, I've been wanting to start a thread on that.

Admins, should we start a new forum, something like Other Works of JRR Tolkien (besides Sil, Hobbit and LoTR)??? (even though CT published HoME, still its based on JRR's writings). And letters and HoME stuff would go in it. Or should we just keep this stuff in ME forum? Or make Sil into "Sil and Other Works", esp. since a large portion of HoME relates to the Sil.

Snowdog · 10-01-2002, 10:57 PM

I dont have the HoME series yet, and have withheld getting them for awhile now. I seem to be of the opinion that 'too much information' can muddy the water of the story of Middle Earth as a whole. This happened with the quandry of Galadriel and Celeborn in Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales... Maybe someday....

01-13-2002, 05:44 PM	#1
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	"The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" First, let me ask whether this is the proper spot for points relating to "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien", and if not, O Site Gods, please go ahead and move this to wherever you feel appropriate. May I suggest a new "Master Topic", "J.R.R. Tolkien The Man"? I have been reading "Letters", and am absolutely fascinated. Not only by observing how his writings came into being, but by the insights into how the man thought. I would love a spot to discuss his ideas on things like War in genreal, his views on Hitler, and even his take on "football," "sportsmanship," or marriage and the sexes. He says some deeply relevant things in the Letters, and I would love to discuss some of these issues with fellow Mooters and see their views on them. I was really taken on how he stood up, in 1938, to the idiots at the publishers in Germany who wanted him to basically give evidence of his "ethnic purity" in order to publish "The Hobbit" in German. His response, in part, states: "But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I have no ancestors of that gifted people [emphasis added]. This is such an incredibly beautiful thing for the Master to say, and I would have loved to have seen the faces of the Nazi Party faithful upon reading these brave words, and moreso, had that paperhanger Hitler himself been shown the Master's derision for his blatant pig-ignorant stupidity. Tolkien makes some more wonderful comments about Hitler and his type, including, "We knew Hitler was a vulgar and ignorant little cad...". I'd love to discuss some of these comments in further detail with my fellow Mooters, if you folks are of a mood... __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-15-2002, 04:41 PM	#3
Pailan Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: aisle 12, seat#2 Posts: 449	I don't quite understand, as I said in another thread, how neo-facsists could ever embrace Tolkien as supporting their empty headed values. I mean, what are Elves, the master race or something? They are waning and Men are on the rise. What about Dwarves and Hobbits and all the other peoples of Tolkiens imagination? I don't have to go to his letters to know the man was not a facsist. Although he touched on the distrust that grows from misunderstangs i.e. Elves -vs- Dwarves. But he also resolved that too, (see Legolas and Gimli.) I find those who interpert Tolkien in such a narrow fashion have something massively wrong with their world view. The misappropiation of art for political motives is a scurge we all must fight. Grrrr. __________________ "Holy Entmoot, Batman!" "Who knows, Robin? This strange mixing of minds may be the greatest single sevice ever performed for humanity! Let's go, but, inconspicuosly, through the window. We'll use our Batropes. Our job is finished." Oh, btw, Frodo lives.

02-26-2002, 06:16 PM	#5
Gerbil Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: London, UK Posts: 797	Just had a thought - we could have a thread where people try to 'prove' the most outrageous things ever citing Tolkien's works. I'm pretty sure you could use his stuff to prove / disprove his belief in- - Any religion you choose - Aliens - Racism - Sexism - Homophobia - Any other -ism you care to mention - Hentai - Gerbil is the new messiah (gerbilism) Personally I'm off to use his works to prove the government can't make me pay taxes. __________________ Gerbil gerbil@theburrow.co.uk

02-26-2002, 10:04 PM	#7
MasterMothra Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: utumno and angband Posts: 241	ive heard of the letters of tolkien but cant find them anywhere. could someone give the full name of the book and where you bought it? as always, thanks in advance for your help. __________________ "........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon.

02-26-2002, 10:08 PM	#8
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	No allegory? I'd have to say no intentional allegory. I find it very hard to keep my opinions of things out of books, even if they are masked very well __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

01-14-2002, 03:38 PM	#2
Kiri Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 42	I'd say that anybody who would base a good chunk of Middle Earth's history on the Two Kingdoms (Israel and Judea--even as a kid I recognized the allusion in Ardor and Gondor) wouldn't be prone to being too nice to Nazis.

02-26-2002, 10:16 PM	#9
Gerbil Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: London, UK Posts: 797	But if it's not intentional then it's not there - if you read allegory into it it does not make it an allegorical story __________________ Gerbil gerbil@theburrow.co.uk

03-01-2002, 11:29 AM	#10
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	I agree with the rodent messiah. Tolkien meant no allegorical connection to Israel nor the Bible nor the Stations of the Cross nor Ethel the Aardvark Goes Quantity Surveying. I don't understand why some folks insist on drawing the ecclesiastic parallels. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

03-01-2002, 11:52 AM	#11
Gerbil Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: London, UK Posts: 797	Reading some of his works he does make clear he has been influenced by his religious background, BUT it was not consciously put into his work. To clarify then - he didn't INTENTIONALLY put any religious overtones into his work - therefore if you see it (which in some cases is possible) then it's NOT INTENTIONAL... __________________ Gerbil gerbil@theburrow.co.uk

03-02-2002, 04:38 PM	#12
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	This is a really good thread! I find Tolkien the man very interesting.

03-02-2002, 05:43 PM	#13
Nibs Head Hollara Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 751	Well, any one is free to draw their own "ecclesiastic parallels" (as bropous mentioned) merely for their own use. If I think that the orcs the fellowship encountered could stand as allegorical for the hardships in my life, that's just fine and dandy. However, if I try to impress my opinions upon others, that's when it gets out of hand. The interpretations are for the reader's benefit, and everyone is entitled to their own. That was my profundity for the day. Whoah, that hits my weekly allotment. No more for you. __________________ "People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us.

03-02-2002, 07:52 PM	#15
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	He said Numenorian culture is gypt like, and he said Rohan isn't anglo-saxon, and yet... __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-03-2002, 12:07 AM	#16
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	And yet what? __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

03-03-2002, 12:21 AM	#17
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Rohan is an anglo-saxon kingdom and gondor is a medieval feudal kingdom. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

09-29-2002, 07:48 PM	#18
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	I am so excited! I found a copy of "Letters" and bought it (well, my father bought it for me) yesterday. I've been searching and searching for it, and this was the very first copy I have EVER seen. It is precious to me I can't seem to find it at the moment, but Tolkien does admit that LOTR is slightly allegorical. He basically said "It is allegory, at first unconcious, but concious as I revised it"...and that is not a direct quote. I will post the direct quote when I find it. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

09-30-2002, 12:33 AM	#19
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	"Letters" is fascinating - I'm glad someone brought this thread back up. I'll throw in my 2-cents' worth when I can get a few minutes to find it! Also, there's so many of us that have HoME books now, I've been wanting to start a thread on that. Admins, should we start a new forum, something like Other Works of JRR Tolkien (besides Sil, Hobbit and LoTR)??? (even though CT published HoME, still its based on JRR's writings). And letters and HoME stuff would go in it. Or should we just keep this stuff in ME forum? Or make Sil into "Sil and Other Works", esp. since a large portion of HoME relates to the Sil. __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 09-30-2002 at 12:35 AM.

10-01-2002, 10:57 PM	#20
Snowdog Dúnedain Ranger of the North Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Ruins of Arnor Posts: 892	I dont have the HoME series yet, and have withheld getting them for awhile now. I seem to be of the opinion that 'too much information' can muddy the water of the story of Middle Earth as a whole. This happened with the quandry of Galadriel and Celeborn in Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales... Maybe someday.... __________________ "I am an outlaw, I was born an outlaw's son. The highway is my legacy, on the highway I will run."

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