The Singers Thread

[Tessar]

This thread is for all of the singers out there! Any style, any talent level!

Although the discussions may be heavily technique centered at times, feel free to jump in with any conversation related to singing whether it's a question, a suggestion on a singer you really like, or even just to let us know you got the big solo at church.

[Voronwen]

Oh, yay!!!

We can't possibly be the only ones here who sing??

Come on out of hiding, fellow songbirds!

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Btw ~ what songs/arias are you working on? This might be more of a question for the Classical Music thread, but i'm just curious, as i always am where it concerns other singers I just started working on "S'altro che lacrime" (Mozart, La clemenza di Tito, Servillia's aria), and it's been one of those things that just settles in the voice so well that i was able to get it "into" my voice astoundingly quickly - which as you know, does not happen every day! My teacher said it's because it's so well-written, and it's smack in the middle of the appropriate repertoire for my voice type (light-lyric soprano). I'm working on a bunch of Purcell songs, as well. I love early music!

I just found a recording on youtube of Barbara Bonney singing S'Altro che Lacrime... what a beautiful aria .

I'm working on the whole "Gallantry" opera, which is interesting to say the least! Then I'm also doing the first two duets plus the recit. from Marriage of Figaro, and I'm doing the quintet from Magic Flute... So no real 'arias' as such. I'm doing the Policeman's Song from Pirates of Pinzance, getting that into shape for the production in the Fall.


Now that my voice is so much better placed I may have to look at some actual arias. I'll probably look at the catalogue aria from Don Giovann (which this is a good recording of). It's kind of a 'big boy' aria though, so it might be too much for me at this point. I may also try to dust off Non Piu Andrai and Se Vuol Ballare from Marriage of Figaro to see what I can do with them now.

I tell you what, this afternoon I pulled out all of my songs from last semester and sang through them... it was AMAZING. Everything I'd struggled with was gone, so long as I kept the nice high placement.

During my lesson my voice teacher had me flip back and forth between the new placement and the old one a few times, then on the last time (after I'd done the bad placement) he said: "Okay, so now you will never, ever sing like that again, right? Go forth, and sing the GOOD way."

[Earniel]

The world is better off with me not singing but...

Originally Posted by Tessar

This thread is potentially not going to stay, pending how the other admins feel about it

No problem from my part, but maybe Entertainment is better? Your call.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I just found a recording on youtube of Barbara Bonney singing S'Altro che Lacrime... what a beautiful aria .

It is, i am loving it, and well... it's Mozart! The end part with the high A's is fun. A is a good note for me, at least so i'm told, that and Bb, i guess this is how one knows she's a light-lyric, huh?

Right now my tried-and-true audition aria is Ach, ich fühl's (Pamina's aria from The Magic Flute). Bb's all over the place, and people like it in my voice, so it's my old reliable.

Did you get the role of Papageno, btw?

Now that my voice is so much better placed I may have to look at some actual arias. I'll probably look at the catalogue aria from Don Giovann (which http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbXf45fopH4&feature=related is a good recording of).

Oh, what FUN! Don Giovanni is one of my favorite operas. And that scene is hilarious. I always wanted to sing Donna Elvira, as she's such a fun character - but, not with this voice, not in this lifetime! It's a fuller-voiced role. My role in this opera would be Zerlina.

It's kind of a 'big boy' aria though, so it might be too much for me at this point.

It's good that you have the presence of mind not to jump into 'big' arias too soon! So many young singers don't have this discipline (says the girl who was tinkering with Der Holle Rache at age 19, just because she had all the notes! ).

I tell you what, this afternoon I pulled out all of my songs from last semester and sang through them... it was AMAZING. Everything I'd struggled with was gone, so long as I kept the nice high placement.

Oh, isn't that just GREAT when that happens! I had a similar breakthrough moment last year when i pulled out all of my material from my senior recital and sang through it, and thought, hm, all the 'hard parts' are now easy!

During my lesson my voice teacher had me flip back and forth between the new placement and the old one a few times, then on the last time (after I'd done the bad placement) he said: "Okay, so now you will never, ever sing like that again, right? Go forth, and sing the GOOD way."

That is awesome. Yes, sometimes it's a good thing to go 'too far' in a wrong direction (with supervision, of course, ideally) just to feel what it's like to place something *wrong*. Then you feel the difference between something that doesn't work, or kind of works, and what really *does*. Usually it's so much more of an almost effortless feeling when everything's alligned properly (inside space, placement, breath support, etc) that yeah, you really don't want to go back!

One of the 'bugs' i'm working through right now is, despite still being a light soprano voice, i am now past 30, when the voice finally "matures" (at least part of me is, right? ). This adds 'warmth' to the voice and good things like that, but it also creates more of the tendency to bring 'weight' from the bottom range (chest range) up into the top (headvoice). Not good!! Especially as a high soprano. I've had to work endlessly on keeping my own placement nice and light and high through the transition.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

One of the 'bugs' i'm working through right now is, despite still being a light soprano voice, i am now past 30, when the voice finally "matures" (at least part of me is, right? ). This adds 'warmth' to the voice and good things like that, but it also creates more of the tendency to bring 'weight' from the bottom range (chest range) up into the top (headvoice). Not good!! Especially as a high soprano. I've had to work endlessly on keeping my own placement nice and light and high through the transition.

That must be tough. It's always hard to keep a voice well balanced, but it sounds like you've got a great teacher .

Have you ever sung the Laudate Dominum? That sounds like it would probably fit beautifully into your vocal range .




The new placement is really making my low notes pop out too! I discovered that quite to my surprise tonight during choir.


I really think my voice is in the right placement now, because I sang all during my voice lesson, I sang ALL DAY after that because it was such a weird, amazing feeling to be able to sing that way, and then I sang for the entire choir rehearsal and never lost a note of my range... my throat feel absolutely fine, although at the end of choir I could tell my voice was getting a little worn out but nothing too serious.

I'm still paranoid that I may not end up developing into a professional quality singer as far as the 'instrument' goes, but I'm grateful to be able to sing with so much freedom now if nothing else .

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

That must be tough. It's always hard to keep a voice well balanced, but it sounds like you've got a great teacher .

I do, she is a blessing!

Have you ever sung the Laudate Dominum? That sounds like it would probably fit beautifully into your vocal range .

No, i haven't. But i've worked on the Et incarnatus est.

The new placement is really making my low notes pop out too! I discovered that quite to my surprise tonight during choir.

Hmm, not sure i can relate to this one... but, it makes sense. I don't know much about male voices, and obviously i don't own one, so...

I really think my voice is in the right placement now, because I sang all during my voice lesson, I sang ALL DAY after that because it was such a weird, amazing feeling to be able to sing that way, and then I sang for the entire choir rehearsal and never lost a note of my range... my throat feel absolutely fine, although at the end of choir I could tell my voice was getting a little worn out but nothing too serious.

This is a very good sign! It means you've taken pressure off the throat, literally. Good for you!

I'm still paranoid that I may not end up developing into a professional quality singer as far as the 'instrument' goes, but I'm grateful to be able to sing with so much freedom now if nothing else .

Enjoy the freedom! And don't worry too much about the future. Nobody can predict what a voice will end up being like a few years down the road. Just enjoy the journey.

[Voronwen]

Continuing my thoughts here so we don't clog up the Classical Music thread with more singers' chatter...

Opening a can of musical worms... Of course, it's a whole debate in itself as to whether classical singers should "cross over" into other styles of singing. Some say it damages the delicate balance of the training of the muscles used for singing, causing placement issues (a sound that's placed too far forward, ie. 'in the nose'), tension (an overly tight sound production), and registration problems (issues with imbalance in the passagio between the head and chest registers), which is probably what we're hearing going on with Chenoweth

I usually err on the side of caution, personally. But i do have to qualify that by admitting that an occasional session of just forgetting all the pickier aspects of classical technique and just belting along with Loreena McKennitt or something (which is arguably not a belting style, but i can't truly belt so for me it is ) usually imparts a certain freedom of production when i go back and practice 'for real'. Perhaps that's just a matter of being able to let go a bit and not 'think too much' about technique, which is something we all have to do at a certain point, myself especially as i tend to be one of those picky perfectionists.

How do you feel about it, Tessar? Anyone else?

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Of course, it's a whole debate in itself as to whether classical singers should "cross over" into other styles of singing. Some say it damages the delicate balance of the training of the muscles used for singing, causing placement issues (a sound that's placed too far forward, ie. 'in the nose'), tension (an overly tight sound production), and registration problems (issues with imbalance in the passagio between the head and chest registers), which is probably what we're hearing going on with Chenoweth

I haven't heard clips of Chenoweth singing super recently, but based on what I've heard from her in the past I'm going to have to disagree with you somewhat.

When I hear her, I don't detect any tension in the voice or and kind of imbalance whatsoever. Here's part of my reasoning: How could she possibly sing those whistle notes the way she does if her voice were unbalanced? If she were messing up her registration she would have to disconnect from her head voice to sing them, and then she wouldn't be able to sing up into them the way she does.

Kelly Clarkson is a good example of someone who has broken her registers apart. From what I've heard her sing recently it sounds like the only way she can continuously ascend now is to just pull chest higher and higher. It's not that she can't sing in head, but she has disconnected it a lot by belting in a manner that isolates the head and chest.

Don't get me wrong I love her voice, but if she tried to sing opera it would be like a cat stuck in water .

If you listen to Chenoweth belt it never stays entirely in chest. She mixes as she ascends... and then of course she flips it over into a full head, which I don't like... I wish she would mix higher than she does, but that's her prerogative.

Now I agree her placement is probably not where it could be as far as opera goes, because she uses that bright and wide broadway placement... which from what I understand is perfectly healthy, it's just not how you sing opera.

In fact that's what my teacher and I worked on today. He says I've got the voice working freely, now all I need is put my vowels into a 'classical' placement... We worked with 'ee' in particular because I was able to sing it with a very light, shallow placement and then widen the sound into a full and rich 'operatic' vowel.

The shallower vowel isn't "bad", I could easily get away with singing a broadway song using that kind of placement because it still has a nice ring to the sound, it just isn't as full as an operatic sound.

Back to Chenoweth, I don't think we've ever heard her sing full on operatic style. The closest she comes is Glitter and Be Gay (or maybe in 'We Are Women') but it sounds to me like she's not really trying to be an opera singer, she's using a sort of blend between a theater and operatic sound.

I think this is another good example... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdSDupGZZH0 It sounds like she has perfect registration to me, she's just placing the voice in a theater style.

I usually err on the side of caution, personally. But i do have to qualify that by admitting that an occasional session of just forgetting all the pickier aspects of classical technique and just belting along with Loreena McKennitt or something (which is arguably not a belting style, but i can't truly belt so for me it is )

Well, we definitely agree there... Loreena McKennitt certainly doesn't belt! It's not the world's greatest technique, but it's definitely good... I think the main difference would be that she's a Mezzo-Soprano (or so I assume... I haven't heard more than a handful of sopranos with a chest register like Loreena has) so you just wont be able to match her timbre because you're a soprano. I'm sure she'd just choke if she tried to sing a Bb like you do.

Back to Chenoweth though, I think that despite her career as a broadway singer she'll also be amazing at the Met... assuming she has a good coach. I have heard mediocre singers start to sound AMAZING after a good coaching session... because if the technique is right, then the only problems are placement and vowels.

I think she'll surprise a lot of people because she strikes me as being very musically intelligent, I think she's got great technique, and all she needs to sing opera is a slightly taller placement and round vowels.



Of course all of this is just me speaking kind of hypothetically. I'm just an opinionated student . I certainly respect that you don't like her sound, and of course everything is so subjective... I could sit there and be awed by her performance and you could sit right next to me and think it sounds gross .

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

When I hear her, I don't detect any tension in the voice or and kind of imbalance whatsoever. Here's part of my reasoning: How could she possibly sing those whistle notes the way she does if her voice were unbalanced? If she were messing up her registration she would have to disconnect from her head voice to sing them, and then she wouldn't be able to sing up into them the way she does.

Now I agree her placement is probably not where it could be as far as opera goes, because she uses that bright and wide broadway placement... which from what I understand is perfectly healthy, it's just not how you sing opera.

she's using a sort of blend between a theater and operatic sound.

It sounds like she has perfect registration to me, she's just placing the voice in a theater style.

Hmm... You do make a convincing argument! I think this might be the crux of the matter, actually. In classical, this kind of sound is a bit grating and offensive, but in musical theater it's just fine!

I think that despite her career as a broadway singer she'll also be amazing at the Met... assuming she has a good coach. I have heard mediocre singers start to sound AMAZING after a good coaching session... because if the technique is right, then the only problems are placement and vowels.

I think she'll surprise a lot of people because she strikes me as being very musically intelligent, I think she's got great technique, and all she needs to sing opera is a slightly taller placement and round vowels.

She just may, yet. It's my thinking that she would have to commit exclusively to the classical style for a while in order to get rid of any ingrained broadway "habits" (like the vowel issues), then perhaps we'll see.

Well, we definitely agree there... Loreena McKennitt certainly doesn't belt! It's not the world's greatest technique, but it's definitely good... I think the main difference would be that she's a Mezzo-Soprano (or so I assume... I haven't heard more than a handful of sopranos with a chest register like Loreena has) so you just wont be able to match her timbre because you're a soprano. I'm sure she'd just choke if she tried to sing a Bb like you do.

No! I cannot match her timbre. She has a heavier instrument, which i agree is a mezzo-soprano, or perhaps some sort of dramatic soprano (again, like with Chenoweth, unless she were to commit to a classical style, we'd never really know). She just happens to sing in a range that is more comfortable to sing with as far as popular music goes, than say, someone like Sarah McLachlan. The latter is often called a mezzo, but i think she may be more of an alto - love her music, cannot sing with it *at all* (at least, not without getting vocally tired! ). And i have no power whatsoever in that part of the voice. Loreena often climbs up into the upper part of her range, which is at least middle-voice/blend for me, which is probably why i can almost 'soft belt' in that range, whereas she is using her head voice (though indeed, i have never heard her sing a Bb - but some mezzos can, my teacher for one, but she is an opera singer ). But neither of these ladies uses the part of the voice where mine really "blossoms", as they say. I need to hit the classical genre for that.

There's precious little in the popular genres that a real soprano can sing with, and i think the same can be said for musical theater (where, as my teacher pointed out, most of the "soprano" roles are actually written in the classical mezzo range!). I think this is part of why i ended up concentrating on classical. That and because as a light soprano, i can't get away with singing in middle voice for all that long without getting vocally exhausted - though i can practice Handel and Mozart all day long without fatigue But i digress...

Re. Chenoweth:

I certainly respect that you don't like her sound, and of course everything is so subjective... I could sit there and be awed by her performance and you could sit right next to me and think it sounds gross .

Who knows I certainly have not heard her perform live, so i might be surprised if i did. The real test for her though, would be to sing classical music unamplified. That would be the real test of her technique as a classical singer. Even the lightest voice can carry well in a theater without mics, if it is produced well.

Regarding your "ee" vowel: That's another toughy, along with "ah". Specifically, the issue with "ee" is that instinctively, we want to 'spread' the space inside and it results in, well... more of that musical theater kind of placement. To get it forward and out, as i'm sure you're finding, it takes a very different, almost counter-intuitive placement. I've also heard that this vowel is especially a bug for you baritones. You'll get it, though. Good luck with it!

[Voronwen]

Adding: For Chenoweth, i think the ideal operatic role for someone like her would be Olympia the Doll in The Tales of Hoffman. Can you just imagine?! That would be perfect for her.

[Tessar]

I think she would make an amazing Olympia... her coloratura seems flawless. That's another thing that makes me think her technique must be fantastic: I've never heard her miss a note, and I've never heard her go seriously flat or sharp.

SO! Lets talk about vowels!!!!!

Regarding your "ee" vowel: That's another toughy, along with "ah". Specifically, the issue with "ee" is that instinctively, we want to 'spread' the space inside and it results in, well... more of that musical theater kind of placement.

I have a couple of thoughts on this so forgive me if I ramble . I'm interested to hear your take on this and how you work with it.

The thing that made my voice pop into the proper placement was fixing my 'ah' vowel. Before that my 'ee' vowel was the best, but even that was not as high as it needed to be. Getting that 'ah' right has allowed me to start placing every single vowel correctly.

The sensation of singing has moved from resonance in my throat/jaw, to buzzing insanely on my hard palate right behind my front teeth, and also a lot more head resonance than I used to feel. Interestingly enough, most of my chest resonance feeling has gone away unless I'm singing in my extreme low register.

The way my teacher describes placement, and what I'm coming to feel the same way about, is that every correctly sung vowel is like a tiny, tiny vowel stuck into a huge resonating space.

The 'ee' thing I'm playing around with right now (starting with a tiny, shallow 'ee' then slowly opening it to a resonant 'ee') is absolutely fascinating to me. When I do the tiny, wide 'ee' I can feel the buzzing on my hard palate. As I expand the resonance to make a 'classical' vowel I feel that buzzing like it's just a very intense, but very tiny, pin-prick of vibration right on my hard palate and I bring in even more head resonance... I'm also opening the back of my throat just as much as I can.

If I don't keep that tiny pin-prick of vibration placed correctly, then the whole sound drops back and everything becomes very dark and 'covered' sounding. If I bring back in that good placement then my voice becomes much more resonant and gets that good 'cutting' quality.

To get it forward and out, as I'm sure you're finding, it takes a very different, almost counter-intuitive placement.

No arguments there.

One thing I'm also finding is that 'oo' is a fun vowel to play around with. So long as I get it put in the right place, there's not much to it. Unlike having to fiddle around with the 'ee' and 'ah', 'oo' already has all of the under and overtones it needs.



Something fun my voice teacher gave me to play around with is starting the 'ah' vowel with my jaw already dropped. I can't do it yet! I can do it up to about a G or an A with no problem, but once I start getting up into C/D land I'm just having a heck of a time.

What I'm finding is that my attack is deficient (for now! ) on the upper notes. I can do a proper attack in my lower and middle range, but getting up higher I have trouble doing that nice gentle onset. I either do it too hard or too soft... on the hard attack the placement can't get settled in, and on the soft attack my voice cracks and wobbles for a second before the placement happens... the few times I got it right it was a nice instantaneous placement.

We're really going to work on that and just drill it into my muscles because what we've found is that I can staccato a decent Ab right now... my throat is very open, I'm doing okay with keeping my jaw free of tension, and my tongue isn't shoving down... but my muscles just don't know how to create/sustain the sound yet.

When I started with him my E's were iffy, and now I'm gaining some solidity through to the F... I can sustain an F, and staccato a pretty fair F#/G. So we know I'm making progress, and my body is obviously adapting to singing in the upper registers, but I need a little more time for my throat (and particularly my breath support) to get used to the high notes.


I'm hoping this means that I'll have a good high A. If I want to get hired I'll definitely need that extension.

I'm also really trying to figure out what my 'trick' will be . As someone... Leyontine Price, I think... said: "The way to get hired is to have a trick that the other ponies can't do!"

My teacher and I discussed that today... He and I feel that my strengths are that I have very strong throat muscles (not a gigantic voice, but my muscles seem to be extremely strong and resilient), I have great attention to detail for singing, and I can focus for a very long time on even minute details. He believes that I also have a certain natural 'quality' to the sound that will help me get hired.

But other than that we're sort of waiting and hoping for something to develop that will be a clear indication of an ability I can expand on to give me a leg up.

[Tessar]

BTW, to hopefully further support my thought that a singer can have the classical placement and still use a broadway/theater placement with all the correct registration would be Mario Lanza.

Opera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB0jORbXkbk

Theater: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHRj_...eature=related

Now there is a definite difference between Chenoweth's theater vowels and Lanza's, but I think (again, me speaking possibly without entirely correct knowledge) that has a lot to do with the fact that he's a guy and she's a girl... it's much easier for guys to speak-sing into their higher registers because of our chest connection... where as for women (speaking particularly of sopranos) the vowels tend to start disappearing and turning to 'uh' much sooner than they do for men.

Also he's got a gigantic voice, and she has a small voice... I definitely think that makes a difference. O_o

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I think she would make an amazing Olympia... her coloratura seems flawless. That's another thing that makes me think her technique must be fantastic: I've never heard her miss a note, and I've never heard her go seriously flat or sharp.

This is true. The 'nasal' quality i hear in her voice may not be a technical issue at all, but just the sound quality of her instrument.

SO! Lets talk about vowels!!!!!

OK...

I'm interested to hear your take on this and how you work with it.

Hmm, well... One of the things that popped into my head while reading your post is that, not only will there be individual quirks from one singer to the next, but that i am a high voice and you a low one. Throw the difference in gender into the mix and we may actually have a very different take on the placement of vowels! But of course there is general technical stuff we can chew on, as we've done thus far. So, i'll give this a go...

The thing that made my voice pop into the proper placement was fixing my 'ah' vowel. Before that my 'ee' vowel was the best

Interesting... you're lucky!

but even that was not as high as it needed to be. Getting that 'ah' right has allowed me to start placing every single vowel correctly.

The sensation of singing has moved from resonance in my throat/jaw, to buzzing insanely on my hard palate right behind my front teeth, and also a lot more head resonance than I used to feel. Interestingly enough, most of my chest resonance feeling has gone away unless I'm singing in my extreme low register.

I'm sure as a lower voice - and as a male - you probably have more of the "chest resonance" sensation than a soprano would naturally have. Perhaps a mezzo or alto could relate to this better? Here's an interesting (if unrelated) thought: Some say that having a teacher who is of your own voice type is the best thing to do. I do have to say, my best technical leaps and strides came when i was studying with a fellow soprano. My current teacher is a mezzo and, while she's been great, i sometimes feel as if we don't 'relate' on some things. She also makes comments such as "I couldn't touch that with a ten foot pole" and stuff like that (which embarass me, lol!). But of course, i cannot touch her low notes nor the sheer size/power that her instrument possesses (and for reference, hers is not a very large voice). Anyway, i was just wondering whether you were studying with a baritone?

The 'ee' thing I'm playing around with right now (starting with a tiny, shallow 'ee' then slowly opening it to a resonant 'ee') is absolutely fascinating to me. When I do the tiny, wide 'ee' I can feel the buzzing on my hard palate. As I expand the resonance to make a 'classical' vowel I feel that buzzing like it's just a very intense, but very tiny, pin-prick of vibration right on my hard palate and I bring in even more head resonance... I'm also opening the back of my throat just as much as I can.

If I don't keep that tiny pin-prick of vibration placed correctly, then the whole sound drops back and everything becomes very dark and 'covered' sounding. If I bring back in that good placement then my voice becomes much more resonant and gets that good 'cutting' quality.

Yes, interestingly enough that "small" sensation you speak of is correct. If things "sound big" inside our heads, it's wrong - as i'm sure you know, it's physically impossible to hear ourselves properly, which is why we go on sensation (which it sounds like you're doing - Bravo! ). It's good that you're getting this grasp on the correct sensations early on.

I do not feel the "pinprick of vibration" on the palette as you do, at all. But this is one of those lower/larger voice things, i believe, from what i've gathered. The way i feel my correct placement is more like a soft, cushioned sense of resonance that feels (as odd as this sounds) like it is somewhere out beyond the bridge of my nose. And of course, this is balanced by the lifted palette, back space, etc. But the vowels need to take place in that cushioned, forward, 'happy place' out there, not behind it and not with any involvement from the tongue base or the jaw (And believe me when i say i have worked through my fair share of tongue tension Not fun!).

One thing I'm also finding is that 'oo' is a fun vowel to play around with. So long as I get it put in the right place, there's not much to it. Unlike having to fiddle around with the 'ee' and 'ah', 'oo' already has all of the under and overtones it needs.

This is interesting to me, as well. Almost every singer i've spoken with at length about technique has had their own personal best vowel, and none of them have been the same vowel. The vowel that opened up a lot of technical breakthroughs for me was "aw". I know, that's weird, and even weirder as a soprano (most of us are "ah" people). But the "aw" vowel is what really got me opening up and lifting the palette, and placing things forward. My teacher at the time hit upon it accidentally, while we were working through With Verdure Clad from Haydn's Creation (in English). We came to the phrase "the mountain's brow is crowned with closed wood", and her sharp ears picked up the way that everything just popped into place on the word "brow". What am i doing, i asked? It felt effortless. So we played with that vowel for a while, and it became kind of a jumping-off point for other vowels. So i can relate to your "oo" vowel story (which is a terrible vowel for me, btw ). It fascinates me how everyone is different.

What I'm finding is that my attack is deficient (for now! ) on the upper notes.

This will come! I promise you This comes with coordination (practice), and time.

We're really going to work on that and just drill it into my muscles because what we've found is that I can staccato a decent Ab right now... my throat is very open, I'm doing okay with keeping my jaw free of tension, and my tongue isn't shoving down... but my muscles just don't know how to create/sustain the sound yet.

This too will come! That is, if you are meant to sing "up there". I'll tell you another story. I went through this with my E6, and to an extent still do. I had one teacher who thought i was a coloratura and really had me working way up there a lot (and i really wanted to be one, so i worked very hard at it!). But that's not what i'm meant to be doing. Though i have those extension notes, my voice is a light lyric, so it's not comfortable with anything more than the occasional venture above high C (and sometimes D). I feel so much better singing the lyric repertoire. I sometimes pull out something freakish like Je suis Titania and just sing through it, for fun and for a vocal workout, but it's not something i'll be performing in public. For public performance, things like L'amero, saro costante are much, much better I wonder, in your case, how many arias for baritone really call for such relatively high notes? Is it just a small sub-set, like with soprano arias? How much will you really need them, to get hired? Definitely work on them, even just during practice, if for no other reason than they keep your range nice and flexible. And if you truly are meant to sing them, you will.

When I started with him my E's were iffy, and now I'm gaining some solidity through to the F... I can sustain an F, and staccato a pretty fair F#/G. So we know I'm making progress, and my body is obviously adapting to singing in the upper registers, but I need a little more time for my throat (and particularly my breath support) to get used to the high notes.


I'm hoping this means that I'll have a good high A. If I want to get hired I'll definitely need that extension.

Again - *please* do not worry about each little high note. Concentrate on everything you've been doing - good balance through the registers, good technique throughout the whole range, etc - and, the range you are supposed to have will come. I know, i went through it (see above), i can remember a time when every single day i would test to make sure that my high F (F6, for Queen of the Night) was 'still there', and if i had a day that it wasn't, i would kick myself and practically despair. But as one more-experienced singer told me then, you can make beautiful, heart-moving music without even venturing above the staff High notes are impressive, but they are not everything. If you have them, use them, yes, but they do not a good singer make. We should be singing to share something with our audience, not to impress them. I'm sure i'm telling you things you already know. I also understand that the career path is extremely competitive (one of the reasons i dropped it, i do not have the kind of personality that thrives on that) and that you do need to distinguish yourself, but high notes are not the only way that can be done.

I'm also really trying to figure out what my 'trick' will be . As someone... Leyontine Price, I think... said: "The way to get hired is to have a trick that the other ponies can't do!"

This is really what it's about, where the issue of distinguishing yourself is concerned. For some, it will be high (or low) notes. For others, it will be immaculate coloratura. For others still, it will be a beautiful sustained legato.

Mine is the "floated" high (but not freakishly-high) note. The spun-silver A, Bb, etc. I've had people, even teachers, swoon over them (much to my surprise!). Another thing people like is my trill. These things that people say about your voice when you least expect it, the things different people along the way in completely unrelated situations notice and expound upon to you out of the blue, are the things you should remember. Catalogue these things in your mind. These are the things that set you apart from the herd.

That said, i would love to have borrowed other peoples' strengths at times - what i wouldn't have done to have dog-whistle notes like Dessay's! But that was when i was younger, and singing for 'shock value', and to 'impress'. These days, i am simply enjoying my lyric voice. I guess you could say it's been a journey of self-acceptance, in a way. Nature did not give me a shock-value voice - it gave me a voice that can share heartfelt emotion and evoke tenderness. To embrace the truth about my instrument was a really significant step toward further techincal development.

I know i've covered a lot of ground here, Tessar, even touching upon things you did not ask - but i've been really enjoying these chats with you.

Where are our other singers? Surely we're not the only ones here on Entmoot who have studied classical voice? I hope the others come out of the woodwork soon and add their 2 cents.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

BTW, to hopefully further support my thought that a singer can have the classical placement and still use a broadway/theater placement with all the correct registration would be Mario Lanza.

Good call I never said that it couldn't be done. I think perhaps whether it can be sustained depends largely on the singer, how the voice is built, etc.

Now there is a definite difference between Chenoweth's theater vowels and Lanza's, but I think (again, me speaking possibly without entirely correct knowledge) that has a lot to do with the fact that he's a guy and she's a girl... it's much easier for guys to speak-sing into their higher registers because of our chest connection... where as for women (speaking particularly of sopranos) the vowels tend to start disappearing and turning to 'uh' much sooner than they do for men.

Yes, i touched upon this in my reply to your above post.

Also he's got a gigantic voice, and she has a small voice... I definitely think that makes a difference. O_o

Again... I agree, this does make a difference!

So much that we've been discussing has to do with variety. It's such an important thing to remember. If all the birds in the word had the same call, it'd be a far less musical place.

[Voronwen]

Tessar, i've had a few more thoughts about vowels while i was out grocery shopping, of all things Here's what i thought of...

Perhaps part of the issue with vowels has something to do with regional inflection. What made me start ruminating on this was the difference in the way my husband and i say the word carrot.

I am a native of New England, and i say "cah-rrot", whereas he, a Midwestern native, says "care-rot". It got me thinking that this may be a part of the puzzle...


What are your thoughts on that?


Sorry for all the posts in a row!

[Tessar]

Perhaps part of the issue with vowels has something to do with regional inflection. What made me start ruminating on this was the difference in the way my husband and i say the word carrot.

I think the way you speak vowels will have a huge effect on how you initially sing them. This afternoon I was working with my dad and we spent a long time fighting over the vowels. He wanted to speak and sing everything back and covered.

I realized that he puts an 'uh' into the heart of every vowel he speaks. It's so slight you wouldn't notice it in his speaking unless you're listening for it, but I think it's at the root of his singing problems.

I'm really proud of him though! His voice is going to take a long time to develop because he's got such massive amounts of body tension, but he's already showing small, measurable improvements.

So much that we've been discussing has to do with variety. It's such an important thing to remember. If all the birds in the word had the same call, it'd be a far less musical place.

I couldn't agree more. You'll have to forgive me if I sometimes come across as being overbearing. I hope I don't. I am 100% willing to admit it if I make a mistake, or if someone can present me with evidence to show that I'm wrong about something. More than that though, I'm keenly aware that opinion and taste are highly personal.

I have a powerful desire to learn about the voice, and I'm aware of how tiny my knowledge is right now. I'm always trying to pull in whatever new information I can get .

I know I have a great ear, so the more I learn the more I'm able to interpret what I'm hearing.

Some say that having a teacher who is of your own voice type is the best thing to do. I do have to say, my best technical leaps and strides came when i was studying with a fellow soprano. My current teacher is a mezzo and, while she's been great, i sometimes feel as if we don't 'relate' on some things.

I think it's true. I made great progress with my bass voice teacher, and these most recent improvements are coming from a baritone teacher. I think technique may come a little easier from someone who is your own voice type.

Of course on the other hand I had a baritone voice teacher who didn't make a lot of improvement in my voice when I was younger... I'll never know if it was simply because he couldn't teach, or if my voice just wasn't ready then to start developing... but either way I don't think I got much technique out of him.

I do not feel the "pinprick of vibration" on the palette as you do, at all. But this is one of those lower/larger voice things, i believe, from what i've gathered. The way i feel my correct placement is more like a soft, cushioned sense of resonance that feels (as odd as this sounds) like it is somewhere out beyond the bridge of my nose. And of course, this is balanced by the lifted palette, back space, etc.

I knew a bass-baritone once with a fairly large voice who described his placement as being the exact same thing. It's possible that it just has to do with a certain body build/skull type. His voice was very resonant.

Of course it's equally possible that I'm on the right path but still need to get my voice further forward! This higher placement in my voice may still not be high enough... as I continue to develop the placement it may end up moving further forward. Who knows!

I recall reading that Rosa Ponselle placed all of her resonance right in the middle of her forehead, but when she tried to get Beverly Sills to do the same thing it just about wrecked Sills' voice. Poneslle's voice was certainly a great deal larger than Sills', and her body build was also quite different.

Originally Posted by Responding to my comment about my attack being deficient on the upper notes

]This will come! I promise you This comes with coordination (practice), and time.

Definitely. Tonight I already see a little improvement... I was able to make a clean attack with my mouth already opened and shaped for the 'ah' up to a C. Not as well placed as it should be though, so I tried a few times on the C# before moving back down to focus on the C. I may spend a day or two just getting things to line up on that C before I try to move any higher.

I wonder, in your case, how many arias for baritone really call for such relatively high notes? Is it just a small sub-set, like with soprano arias? How much will you really need them, to get hired?

It is a very small sub-set... but I've noticed that all of the truly famous baritones have those notes, and (unless they're a very, very low baritone) they are all capable of handling those roles. From what I understand even Samuel Ramey used to have an Ab in his prime... and my GOD that man is a low, low Baritone O_o.

I really think it has to do with the technique. I have a feeling if the technique is solid those notes will be there.

you can make beautiful, heart-moving music without even venturing above the staff High notes are impressive, but they are not everything. If you have them, use them, yes, but they do not a good singer make. We should be singing to share something with our audience, not to impress them.

I couldn't agree more .




Here's a question for you though, and it is not entirely in regards to Chenoweth: Should the need for amplification exclude a voice from singing in an opera house?

I have mixed feelings about it. Like you said, in most cases if the technique is good even a very small voice can be heard. But then again I've heard what singers like Sumi Jo can do with a microphone.

A singer with a naturally large voice doesn't have to sing full blast to be heard in a large space, so they can afford to pull back a little and play with the dynamics. So should a smaller voiced person have to sing full out the entire time and sacrifice a great deal of dynamics?

Many times smaller voiced singers can also do absolutely breath-taking pianissimos that the majority of large voiced singers can't touch. Take for example Sumi Jo... her high pianissimos are stunning, and even at her softest Renee Fleming can't match her (although Renee's pianissimos are nothing to sneeze at). But if both did a forte you would probably hear a whole lot more from Renee than you would from Sumi.

[Pip]

Cool thread, great idea Tessar.

About your opera question, is that taking into considerations the accoustics of the opera house? Or is it just assumed that it's built for good acoustics. Because it's been my experience (however little that may be) that one can have a full, powerful voice but if the acoustics of a place are terrible then there's not much that be done with out a microphone.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

This afternoon I was working with my dad and we spent a long time fighting over the vowels.

I'm really proud of him though! His voice is going to take a long time to develop because he's got such massive amounts of body tension, but he's already showing small, measurable improvements.

Ohh, you are informally teaching him, then? It can be quite a learning experience to do this! I've done it, too. Has he had lessons before? I've worked with my sister, who had had lessons before, but she was coming to me with an audition piece for a "legit" musical theater role (she is normally a belter - yes, she and i are like night and day!) and she wanted to polish things up before the audition. She did not get the role, but was one of only 5 girls who made the final call-backs, and this was for a regional company, so i guess we did something right! She had come to me asking for help with "all that classical stuff you do" She used to think classical technique was too picky and fussy but after that experience she learned its value.

Good luck with the teaching experience! Is teaching something you may want to do someday as an extension of your career?

You'll have to forgive me if I sometimes come across as being overbearing. I hope I don't. I am 100% willing to admit it if I make a mistake, or if someone can present me with evidence to show that I'm wrong about something. More than that though, I'm keenly aware that opinion and taste are highly personal.

Tessar, please! You do not come across at all as overbearing or anything of the sort!

I have a powerful desire to learn about the voice, and I'm aware of how tiny my knowledge is right now. I'm always trying to pull in whatever new information I can get .

This is exactly how you come across - as inquisitive and eager to learn Believe me also when i say that *i do not know everything*, either! I may be older, but i'm not a teacher (at least, not officially ) nor a full-time professional. So please, that said, i think we're on nearly the same level in many ways. I enjoy chatting with other classical singers about singing, and i've found our conversations here to be an interesting give and take - which is just as it should be.

I know I have a great ear, so the more I learn the more I'm able to interpret what I'm hearing.

I think you're doing fine! It seems from the way you articulate yourself about singers and singing that you're a good deal more aware and informed about it than most voice students your age.

Of course on the other hand I had a baritone voice teacher who didn't make a lot of improvement in my voice when I was younger... I'll never know if it was simply because he couldn't teach, or if my voice just wasn't ready then to start developing... but either way I don't think I got much technique out of him.

Hmm... well, it's very possible that you were in some way not ready. It could also have been that his teaching style and your learning style didn't work well together. That happens. I had a teacher once who was a tenor. Can we say, "a fish teaching a bird how to fly", or however that saying from the Wheel of Time books goes? Oh. My. Goodness. I think i learned *nothing* from him, as far as technique goes. I only stayed in his studio for a very short time. Really he was more of a coach anyway, and a few months after i left his studio i did ask him to come and help with a final coaching on a recital i was doing. He and i worked well in that regard. But between his teaching style, my learning style, and the fact that he was a tenor (which, despite being another high voice, is a very different animal from a soprano!), we could not work together on matters of technique.

I knew a bass-baritone once with a fairly large voice who described his placement as being the exact same thing. It's possible that it just has to do with a certain body build/skull type. His voice was very resonant.

This is interesting. My thought on this is similar to yours. I think it probably has to do with the shape of the resonators (nose, sinus cavities, etc) than anything else. Did he have high cheekbones, by any chance? I have high cheekbones, and i had a teacher once who led me to believe that this had something to do with having lots of room inside the resonators to make space for high notes. I'm not sure whether that's true(?!), but i think if nothing else it does have something to do with the way we experience resonance.

I recall reading that Rosa Ponselle placed all of her resonance right in the middle of her forehead, but when she tried to get Beverly Sills to do the same thing it just about wrecked Sills' voice. Poneslle's voice was certainly a great deal larger than Sills', and her body build was also quite different.

This is interesting, too - especially as both women had facial structures quite different from mine, as well as physical build. I am petite with a "heart-shaped" face, and my voice is definitely on the small side. Ponselle had a large, dramatic voice and Sills was not small-voiced but was a coloratura nonetheless - so i can see where they could have experienced resonance quite differently. I find this sort of thing interesting, as i think "voice type" has to do with more than just the length and thickness of the vocal cords.

Tonight I already see a little improvement... I was able to make a clean attack with my mouth already opened and shaped for the 'ah' up to a C. Not as well placed as it should be though, so I tried a few times on the C# before moving back down to focus on the C. I may spend a day or two just getting things to line up on that C before I try to move any higher.

Good! Yes, i think it's wise to take things one step at a time.

I've noticed that all of the truly famous baritones have those notes, and (unless they're a very, very low baritone) they are all capable of handling those roles. From what I understand even Samuel Ramey used to have an Ab in his prime... and my GOD that man is a low, low Baritone O_o.

I really think it has to do with the technique. I have a feeling if the technique is solid those notes will be there.

I have to agree, if the voice is flexible and healthy and the technique is good, there will be more range to play with. This is why i have not yet entirely given up on my E6

Should the need for amplification exclude a voice from singing in an opera house?

Traditionally, i think many people would say yes. The classical technique started because singers needed to be heard in an age before microphones, and many today maintain that traditional opinion about it. That is not to say that i entirely agree, but i can see the attraction in doing things 'as they've always been done', especially in the sense that we are essentially re-creating (or continuing) what has been called a "living art". You can walk into a museum and see an original Renaissance painting, but the only way to experience an opera the way the composer intended it to sound, is for us to re-create the conditions under which it was originally produced. Disclaimer: i am very traditional about most things, so i'm sure this rubs off on my ideas about the arts, as well... just saying. So yes, i am all about "historically-informed performance" and serving the original intent in the music and all those sorts of things. Maybe i am not the right person to ask.

I have mixed feelings about it.

As usual, you raise a lot of good points. But i think the issue with larger vs. smaller voices is not so much that smaller ones need a microphone, but that they should stick to appropriate music for them that doesn't have such huge orchestration that they couldn't possibly be heard over it. If you notice, this has a great deal to do with the kind of music that is appropriate for a voice. I know i have asked my teacher before about arias that i would be physically capable of singing - such as the "Song to the Moon" from Rusalka - but she has vetoed them for no other reason than because the orchestration would be overpowering for me. Sure, i could sing it with piano accompaniment, or with a microphone, but if i were to audition for the role i would not get hired - my voice is too light to be able to carry over the tremendous orchestration. The same could be said for lots of Puccini and other things from that same period. There's a reason i stick with things like Handel and Haydn, and it's not only because i adore the Baroque.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Pip

Cool thread, great idea Tessar.

About your opera question, is that taking into considerations the accoustics of the opera house? Or is it just assumed that it's built for good acoustics. Because it's been my experience (however little that may be) that one can have a full, powerful voice but if the acoustics of a place are terrible then there's not much that be done with out a microphone.

I wish I could take credit for it, but the thread was actually Voronwen's idea .

You are correct in saying that even a big voice doesn't stand a chance in a place with horrible acoustics, and opera houses do differ. I've been told that American opera houses tend to be much larger than European ones, and sometimes do not have as good acoustics.

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Ohh, you are informally teaching him, then? It can be quite a learning experience to do this! I've done it, too. Has he had lessons before?

He had a few lessons with my old baritone teacher, and he never got much out of it.

Good luck with the teaching experience! Is teaching something you may want to do someday as an extension of your career?

Definitely. Some day I would love to be a voice teacher, but I wont do it unless I think I can be a great teacher. I hope I can be, but I will never become one of those people who only goes into teaching because they can't sing any more.

I have to agree, if the voice is flexible and healthy and the technique is good, there will be more range to play with. This is why i have not yet entirely given up on my E6

I wonder if having a breakthrough to solidify the E will have any other effects on your range or general singing. I wonder, would the technique required to use the E have any effect on your low range? I'm mainly wondering that because it seems to me like the high notes have everything to do with placing the note just right, and it's just as crucial for the low notes.

What's cute is that I know a lyric soprano who gave me some lessons, and she told me that when she was young she loved to sing the A5. Now she loves to sing the G5 (she was 45 at the time). According to her husband, her voice was annoying when she was young! He said her sound lost a lot of the 'over bright' character that annoyed him as she went into her 30's, and her voice is still very brilliant and shimmers, but there's also a lovely mature color to it now.

Her story was a bit like yours, actually... she really cautioned me not to push myself too hard for high notes. When she was studying in the conservatory the big thing was that F6, and apparently some days she could push herself up to the A6, but once she got out of school she realized she really didn't need those notes.

I know i have asked my teacher before about arias that i would be physically capable of singing - such as the "Song to the Moon" from Rusalka - but she has vetoed them for no other reason than because the orchestration would be overpowering for me. Sure, i could sing it with piano accompaniment, or with a microphone, but if i were to audition for the role i would not get hired - my voice is too light to be able to carry over the tremendous orchestration.

This is somewhere that I know a lot of voice teachers disagree, and in this case I would actually (respectfully) disagree with your voice teacher.

Here's my angle: If you are physically capable of singing Song to the Moon (which I absolutely adore) then why not? So you'll never perform the role. What about recitals? Just because you can't sing something under one situation (i.e. standing behind a full orchestra in a large opera house) why should you be prevented from singing it in a more optimal setting? Like with a minimal orchestration, or a piano, or with slight amplification, or any other dozen possibilities. It's different if the song doesn't sound good in your voice. Then I could understand not learning it. But if it does sound good, then why not?

I think sometimes people get too caught up in this cycle of believing in an idealistic setting for an aria. For instance I was talking to a friend about a counter-tenor I liked in a Handel opera. He said that only a mezzo should sing the aria because if it were an opera-house setting, the counter tenor wouldn't be heard as easily as a mezzo. When I asked him directly, he had to admit that the counter tenor had sung the aria very beautifully, and actually could be heard very well over the orchestra. I think in many cases it comes down to how people have heard the music performed before. It would be like saying a tulip is an ugly flower, because you're used to seeing roses, rather than appreciating the unique beauty of the tulip.

Take Renee Fleming. I'm sure she would never actually play the role of Candeed, but she sings a gorgeous "Glitter and Be Gay." But a lot of people say that she should never sing that piece because the role isn't right for her voice.

Lots of people said that Jessye Norman should never have sung half the things she did because the pieces were too 'small' for her voice, but she sang them beautifully in my opinion. Just because she might not have actually been cast in the roles doesn't mean she shouldn't be allowed to perform selections.

I think there's a fine line between honoring the music and attempting to keep music in a glass prison. Of course that once again falls under the category of personal taste.



Back to vowels!!

My teacher and I had a conversation during our second lesson and we touched on the same idea again this last Friday.

When most people talk about coloring the voice, they end up using things like slightly depressing the larynx for a 'darker' color, or lessening the mouth space to create a muted pianissimo, or raising the larynx for a plaintive sound. It always sounded a little fishy to me, but I could see how those things would create the sound.

But what my teacher thinks, and I agree with, is that you can use vowels to create the exact same effect. He showed me how different vowels have different 'resonances'... for instance 'ah' is a very bright vowel and actually sounds like a slightly higher pitch than 'aw' or 'auh' does. So coloring of the voice has just about everything to do with threading a darker or brighter vowel into the heart of whatever other vowel you're actually singing.

I am still far from being at a point where I can sing with good technique AND worry about advanced things like coloring my vowels excessively (to quote my teacher: "If you can sing with pure vowels automatically in six months that would be amazing progress. THEN we can talk about coloring the vowels... ), but it seems very solid theoretically speaking.

Any thoughts?



I'm really excited to be working with this guy. I feel like if I can stick with him and keep making progress he'll help me grow to be an actual artist and performer.

He's also hilarious. Half the time he's encouraging me as though I'm about to be the next performer at the Met. and the rest of the time he's making fun of my bad technique .

For instance I have a bad habit of singing with tight lips. We got about halfway through the Policeman's Song from Pirates of Penzance before he threw up his hands and said, "MY GOD! What is that noise!? Do you have a speech impediment?You don't talk like you do, so why the hell would you sing like you do? Stop that!" It made me laugh .

I think he and I just work together very well... he realizes he can tell me directly and bluntly what the problems in my voice are and that I'll understand he's talking about the bad habit and not about me personally.

I do have to be careful. With the complements he gives me I think I could very easily get ahead of myself. Self confidence is one thing, but I am very aware (and hopefully will always be) that even if you're incredible, and even if you experience great success, that doesn't make you the best. It means you're good, but it doesn't make you the best.