U.S. Government Shutdown

[tolkienfan]

Is anyone else disturbed by this? Most people I talk to don't seem to care, as long as they aren't the ones suddenly out of work for an indeterminate amount of time or cheated out of a vacation to D.C./a natural park. I'm also curious what the rest of the world thinks of this embarrassing predicament Americans are in.

[Insidious Rex]

Well Im here in DC, just a few blocks from Pennsylvania Avenue and the National Mall so of course its having a bigger impact here locally. Theres definitely less people on the buses when I go home from work and you can see things gated off as you pass through downtown that would normally be available.

I think its really pitiful that its come to this and Im so disgusted that a few dozen wackos in the Republican House have essentially taken the entire country hostage because they cant accept that Obamacare has been legally and fairly made the law of the land (and ratified by the Supreme Court!). This is governing? Screwing over millions of people who wont have a salary or who will have vacation plans dashed or VETs who need to have their cases processed. Destroying our credit rating? Undermining our economy? All because they refuse as a rule to ever go along with anything Obama does? And how about what a spineless coward Boehner is for not gathering together the 100+ republican moderates into a coalition that could easily push through a clean CR but he is so afraid of the tea party anarchists in his party that he lets them run the show. Pathetic unforgivable spineless and gutless...

And I blame gerrymandering for this. Gerrymandering has destroyed our nation's ability to govern rationally. Now any wack job can get elected and never fear losing their seat because the district lines are drawn ridiculously to game the system. We will never hope to get anywhere until that system comes to an end.

[Mari]

What I think ridiculous is the scaring people tactics the Republicans employ. I've seen status updates that calculate that some people will have to pay over 5000 dollars per month to insurance and if they don't their taxes will go up, their houses will be confiscated etc. That is simply not legal so how they can say and even believe that stuff!?
And leaving a country in disarray because someone is trying to do something for the entire country, not just the lucky few, is ridiculous in any case.

[tolkienfan]

I figured that it was a no-brainer that a govt shutdown is far worse than either alternative (Obamacare/no Obamacare). However, I have recently heard of people who are writing to their representatives to NOT compromise on this issue - and some of these very people are the ones who have just had their jobs suspended with no promise of backpay! Additionally, some who have been severely affected by the shutdown believe that the politicians are not to blame, and that the fragmented views of the American people have caused the stalemate. I thought these perspectives were quite interesting, and the latter has made me reconsider supporting impeachment of all involved in the shutdown a la Australia. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...in-parliament/

[Midge]

Hey, now. It's not necessarily the Republicans' fault. The Democrats are being equally stubborn - they were provided with a spending bill that allowed money for everything to continue operating, with the exception of ObamaCare (see this article - it's got some other good points too).

I am not a fan of ObamaCare, and I am not a wealthy person by any means. My husband and I live basically hand-to-mouth, and paying for insurance would be extremely hard on us. However, despite this, I would rather deal with the hardship because with a competitive market, there's a possibility for us to better ourselves.

Honestly, I can't tell which would be worse personally for me - the continuation of ObamaCare into a more and more socialist USA or a default on the national debt in the middle of a government shutdown. But I can pretty much unequivocally say which would be objectively worse for my country (which I happen to love).

Hmm... but expounding on that might get me moved to another thread or something.

Suffice it to say that while I am certainly worried for the financial state of things both national and individual (and my mother, being an employee of Social Security Administration, is being forced to work without pay for the time being), it also is true that I have been worried about those same financial states for a LONG time now.

Prices go up, the value of the dollar goes down, small businesses and capitalism are on the decline (from what I see in the midwest town where I live - one of the 5 biggest cities in Missouri - and in the smaller communities around us; I don't know if it's better or worse in larger cities elsewhere), the country just keeps getting deeper and deeper in debt and the list goes on.

So it's come down to this. When an individual gets to a certain point in their finances, their credit is cut off. I am of the opinion that a default in the midst of a shutdown might be just what the country needs (and believe me, I would still be extremely concerned should it come to that point). However, what I think will actually happen would be that President Obama would make a move. I think if Congress doesn't come to a decision in time, President Obama will simply ignore the Constitutional checks and balances (where Congress is the branch which determines how money will be spent) and declare the debt ceiling raised all by himself.

And even if the Supreme Court has ruled that ObamaCare is constitutional, that does not mean that ObamaCare is going to be good for our country.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Midge

Hey, now. It's not necessarily the Republicans' fault. The Democrats are being equally stubborn - they were provided with a spending bill that allowed money for everything to continue operating, with the exception of ObamaCare

which is the same as saying that they will get in the way of funding ANYTHING to force the president to repeal a law that has been LEGALLY passed by both houses of government AND ratified by the Supreme Court no less. thats a joke! thats not compromise. Thats saying we couldnt get this done the legal way so we are going to hold a gun to the head of the american people and if you dont rescind obamacare we will shoot! its disgusting, selfish close minded, anti-american, contrary to the Constitution and yes... yes this one IS all the republicans fault. Im a big fan of spreading blame around when its due and in many cases both parties prove themselves to be incompetent boobs or pathetic corrupt shills to one special interest group or another. But in THIS case, Im sorry, this is all on the repubs (specifically the tea party crazies in the house. I’ll extend my admiration to a number of republicans in the Senate who chose NOT go along with this extreme tactic. But the tea partiers are anarchist thugs who dont know how to govern and Boehner and other house republicans are spineless worms who are too afraid to try a vote (which would pass) for fear of retaliation from the wacko contingent).

I am not a fan of ObamaCare, and I am not a wealthy person by any means. My husband and I live basically hand-to-mouth, and paying for insurance would be extremely hard on us. However, despite this, I would rather deal with the hardship because with a competitive market, there's a possibility for us to better ourselves.

You mean theres a possibility for you to be dropped by private insurance companies if and when you one of you comes down with a serious ailment (god forbid!). Because you would under the old system. And it would be perfectly legal. Do cutthroat insurance companies and bottom line only HBO networks really allow you to "better yourself"? Do you really think its better for people to die or not get the treatment they need for their medical condition then to be covered under a pseudo-government plan because it somehow teaches them poor coping skills or makes them dependent? Im thinking they wont be needing those coping skills when they are dead. The republicans want to keep 30 million americans from getting health insurance. And they want americans with costly pre-existing conditions to deal with it themselves rather then get help. All you end up doing is forcing people to emergency rooms costing tax payers hundreds of billions of dollars and then you turn around and complain about the cost of obamacare? its blind hypocrisy. this is NOT a single payer plan (which is what we really need). This is a compromise ALREADY. this is a plan created by conservative think tanks and implemented by a republican governor who went on to be selected as the most recent republican presidential nominee! this health care plan isn’t some communist decree, this is genetically a conservative initiative... And yet the republicans now want to screw over the entire country to do away with it because theyve now decided its just that bad... Ideologues and zombies one and all...

(and my mother, being an employee of Social Security Administration, is being forced to work without pay for the time being)

But your mom has now been guaranteed back pay. Same with the other 800,000 federal workers who were "furloughed" due to the refusal of the house to submit a continuing resolution. So where exactly is their point being made anymore? The very same people who scream about not being able to afford all our spending and making exceptions left and right to allow for spending voted that we should just go ahead and pay all federal workers anyway. And obamacare is still chugging along and millions of people are signing up. So what exactly is the point of this whole thing anymore! You now have turned this into essentially an unplanned paid vacation for hundreds of thousands of federal workers. Is that consistent with what you are trying to accomplish here? To reign in costs? This government shut down is costing us billions NOT saving us money at all.

And even if the Supreme Court has ruled that ObamaCare is constitutional, that does not mean that ObamaCare is going to be good for our country.

But that does not mean you can hold the country hostage to get rid of something you hate! Its ridiculous logic! We dont like obamacare because it will hurt the american people so we are going to hurt the american people even more to get rid of obamacare. this makes no sense! where did they learn governing! From a Mad Max movie?? Just pass a clean CR and then you can sit down that very next day with the administration and present a long list of items you would like to change or move forward with. Obama has already agreed to a number of changes to his health care law up to this point. He has shown he IS willing to work with the opposition on this! THATS how government WORKS. Government isnt hostage taking and government isnt obstructionism. Government shouldnt involve ideological thugs who have vowed never ever ever to go along with ANYTHING the opposite party proposes at ANY cost. Thats not governing! Those people shouldnt be getting elected but they are now because of gerrymandering and media coddling of extremism. And its screwed up our government dearly and made it nearly impossible to pass laws and make appointments. Anarchy is NOT the solution to our debt issues...

And by the way under obama the US budget deficit has been cut in half! It has NOT increased. Yet over 60% of americans believe it has. This is the kind of climate we are dealing with that contrary where truth doesnt matter and we only promote lies and exaggerations that back up our agenda. The truth is that the defect has fallen at its fastest rate since world war II under Obama! (http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/...cit_chart.html)

And as far as invoking the 14th Amendment to raise the debt limit unilaterally a lot of people doubt the legality of that including presumably Obama, given he’s said he won’t invoke it. So I dont think you need to worry about that although I guess anything is possible. But my opinion is he has some other ideas about how to handle this if it gets to the point where the debt ceiling is threatened. There is already talks of putting together a short term solution.

This whole game of chicken just needs to stop. And as it goes on you will find business having more and more of an issue with it because they are being hurt too and THAT will certainly get the republican's attention if the plight of the common man doesnt. So its a shrinking cliff for Boehner and his gang. And soon they are going to have to jump one way or the other.

[Earniel]

You know, sometimes I'm glad to hear other countries have even crazier politicians than ours. (Trust me when I say I know inept politicians, I'm from the country that went without a federal government for over a year because them bloody politicians preferred no government at all rather than be responsible, compromise and work together. Sounds familiar? Only Iraq ever did worse for crying out loud!)

But even the worst of ours at least appear to live in the same reality as the rest of us, which does not always seem to be the case with the Americans.

And the level of factual-incorrect political propaganda that gets slung around is mind boggling from where I am standing. I mean, just how many people who rage against 'Obamacare' but sorta approve of ACA without knowing it's the bloody same thing, are there? (Although the opposite appears to exist too.) This irrational fear of even the smallest whif of socialism isn't doing your country any good.

I can understand the desire to limit government spending, in fact it's a good thing. Our deficit, while not in the trillions yet, has gotten so huge we may never get it under control ever again. (Have I mentioned our inept politicians yet?) But to limit government spending at the expense of public health? It's not like the American health care system doesn't suck to high hell already for a first world country. Surely there are other, better ways to balance the books than constantly taking money away from the things republican politicians seem to despise: science, environmental control (I heard one of them crowing the shut-down was a good thing because it would cripple that bothersome EPA for the time being) and health care.

[brownjenkins]

The problem is equating personal debt with national debt. Since the international abandonment of the gold standard a good forty years ago now, money between nations is a relative thing, as it should be. The fact that the US can hold the debt it does is a reflection on how strong our economy is, and how strong international confidence is in our economic system. Not raising the debt limit isn't frugal or smart, it's just throwing away some of our economic standing.

Economics is not about absolute values, it about relationships and trust.

[Mari]

Originally Posted by Midge

However, despite this, I would rather deal with the hardship because with a competitive market, there's a possibility for us to better ourselves.

Actually, the 'competitive' market in the US is the most expensive one in the entire world, because companies own it and make sure your hospitals, doctors and consequentially you pay sometimes over 6 times as much as we pay here. Same goes for surgeries.
Over here the government controls the prices. They say what we're willing to pay and ask which company will do it for that much/little. Insurance companies are also controlled by the government and partially funded to make sure the people don't have to pay through the roof. I pay 100 euros per month and have to pay 350 per year myself for medicine etc. If my meds and surgeries and treatments go over the 350 euros, tne insurance covers the rest.

[The Gaffer]

Here's my perspective on this, as someone who has worked in health care for about 18 years.

I look at health systems around the world as part of my job and guess what? The US is the worst in the developed world, by a long way. What I mean by this is that the US spends the most - by far! about 16% of GDP - on health care and gets the worst outcomes. Here in the UK we spend about 8% via our communistic state system and get better outcomes than you. The French spend about 12% in their mixed model and get the best overall outcomes.

You have to ask yourself, where is all that money going? Because it's not going into making people healthier.

Obama was elected with a mandate to reform health care, and he has delivered. I am sure it's imperfect, but that's politics. This whole thing is anti-democratic and it makes America look ridiculous.

It also makes the Republicans look like spoiled children, who take their ball home when they are losing in spite of their cheating and lying.