This git is trying to convince me that Faramir is a prince

FiddlestickBundy · 12-10-2002, 11:59 PM

I am having a contest of wits with a witless and misinformed gentleman who is convinced that Faramir was a prince by blood. I am quite certain that this is not the case -- it is stated in The Two Towers that Aragorn bade him accept a princedom and guard the realm of Ithilien -- but this bloke will not have it.

Do any of you here posses the ammunition I seek to drive this insipid wretch into the ground?

Thanks in advance,

Fiddlestick

Cirdan · 12-11-2002, 01:06 AM

Since he was part of a stewardship he would not be a prince which is a hereditary line of the royal family.

Wouldn't your situation be a contest of wit?

Nibs · 12-11-2002, 01:23 AM

Has he read (or mis-read, perhaps) The Lord of the Rings? But, then again, you may need a dictionary to sufficiently define Steward for the chap.

And I'm rather certain that Faramir was given charge over Ithilien in The Return of the King, not The Two Towers... since you both seem to be wrong in your own right (no pun intended!), I don't think you should "seek to drive this insipid wretch into the ground", as insipid as he may be.

Ñólendil · 12-11-2002, 09:18 PM

After Boromir's death, Faramir became the Captain of the White Tower and the heir to the Stewardship of Gondor. After the return of the King, Faramir remained Steward, but also became Prince of Ithilien. The rest is semantics.

Elfhelm · 12-13-2002, 08:59 PM

Aragorn made him a prince.

Gwaimir Windgem · 12-13-2002, 09:54 PM

The line of the Stewards was a noble bloodline, and they acted, for all purposes, as the kings. So I would call Faramir a prince.

ArwenEvenstar · 12-14-2002, 01:55 PM

i wouldn't consider him a prince before he met Aragorn but after Aragorn gave him pricnedom(sp??) of Ithilien then I would

squinteyedsoutherner · 12-14-2002, 07:36 PM

If you look up "prince" in any decent dictionary you will notice that the word has several meanings. By some, Faramir is definitely a prince, by others he is not. The issue is what your friend means by "prince". Faramir is not of the old King's bloodline(one meaning). But he was clearly next in line (Aragorn aside) to function in all intents and purposes as a "King" upon his father's death (another meaning). It all depends on what your friend is "really" trying to argue when he uses the term "prince" and to which point in the narrative he is refering. Afterall, by the end of the story there is no question that Faramir is a Prince.

Nibs · 12-16-2002, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
If you look up "prince" in any decent dictionary you will notice that the word has several meanings. By some, Faramir is definitely a prince, by others he is not. The issue is what your friend means by "prince". Faramir is not of the old King's bloodline(one meaning). But he was clearly next in line (Aragorn aside) to function in all intents and purposes as a "King" upon his father's death (another meaning). It all depends on what your friend is "really" trying to argue when he uses the term "prince" and to which point in the narrative he is refering. Afterall, by the end of the story there is no question that Faramir is a Prince.

Well, not really, because FiddlestickBundy said:

Quote:

Originally posted by FiddlestickBundy
I am having a contest of wits with a witless and misinformed gentleman who is convinced that Faramir was a prince by blood.

[emphasis added]

Apparently, if the fellow maintained that Faramir was a "prince by blood", which can hardly be mistaken for steward in that diction, he is indeed incorrect... of course, I think that would be a small error compared to mixing up the books... hm?

But everyone's imperfect. And me not the most. Er... least.

Lollypopgurl · 12-16-2002, 06:54 PM

Well, I wouldn't call him a prince by blood.

Wayfarer · 12-16-2002, 08:37 PM

He did have more numenorean blood than most, which made him more 'regal', but I cannot remember if he was a descendant of the line of elendil.

Ñólendil · 12-19-2002, 01:43 AM

*nods* All the Stewards were descended from Elendil in some obscure way -- the answer is in the Appendices ("Númenorean Kings", I guess).

Elvellon · 12-19-2002, 08:03 AM

It all comes to what title the sons of the Steward had. In a feudal society hereditary noble titles were to be expected.

Apparently the eldest son of the steward had the hereditary title of Captain of the White Tower, (as Ñolendil said), but I believe it is not unthinkable that they were also called “Princes of Gondor,” and indeed it may be likely, since they were the heirs of the ruling steward. The reason why it is likely is that, usually, the heirs of the suzerain of a kingdom couldn’t have a lesser title than that of other nobles of the kingdom. Indeed, in many countries (but not all) the title of prince was reserved to the heirs of the suzerain.

Nevertheless, as far as I know, Tolkien never established the titles of the House of Hurin (the House of the Stewards), so no categorical affirmation can be made.

Cirdan · 12-19-2002, 09:35 AM

Prince is usually reserved for the sons of the king and maybe nephews. Faramir could have some royal blood, but so could many others. Prince Imrahil is "of high blood" and "a kinsmen of the Lord", so more distant relations are princes, too, in ME. Faramir is a Captain of Gondor, whatever his bloodline may be, until he is entitled by Elessar.

Ñólendil · 12-20-2002, 08:18 PM

I think the bottom line is that Captain Faramir of Minas Tirith became Prince Faramir of Emyn Arnen.

12-10-2002, 11:59 PM	#1
FiddlestickBundy Sapling Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 5	This git is trying to convince me that Faramir is a prince I am having a contest of wits with a witless and misinformed gentleman who is convinced that Faramir was a prince by blood. I am quite certain that this is not the case -- it is stated in The Two Towers that Aragorn bade him accept a princedom and guard the realm of Ithilien -- but this bloke will not have it. Do any of you here posses the ammunition I seek to drive this insipid wretch into the ground? Thanks in advance, Fiddlestick

12-11-2002, 01:06 AM	#2
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Since he was part of a stewardship he would not be a prince which is a hereditary line of the royal family. Wouldn't your situation be a contest of wit? __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

12-11-2002, 01:23 AM	#3
Nibs Head Hollara Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 751	Has he read (or mis-read, perhaps) The Lord of the Rings? But, then again, you may need a dictionary to sufficiently define Steward for the chap. And I'm rather certain that Faramir was given charge over Ithilien in The Return of the King, not The Two Towers... since you both seem to be wrong in your own right (no pun intended!), I don't think you should "seek to drive this insipid wretch into the ground", as insipid as he may be. __________________ "People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us.

12-11-2002, 09:18 PM	#4
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	After Boromir's death, Faramir became the Captain of the White Tower and the heir to the Stewardship of Gondor. After the return of the King, Faramir remained Steward, but also became Prince of Ithilien. The rest is semantics. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

12-13-2002, 08:59 PM	#5
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	Aragorn made him a prince. __________________ cya

12-13-2002, 09:54 PM	#6
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	The line of the Stewards was a noble bloodline, and they acted, for all purposes, as the kings. So I would call Faramir a prince. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

12-14-2002, 01:55 PM	#7
ArwenEvenstar Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: and why do YOU want to know? Posts: 685	i wouldn't consider him a prince before he met Aragorn but after Aragorn gave him pricnedom(sp??) of Ithilien then I would __________________ The only thing active about me is my imagination!

12-14-2002, 07:36 PM	#8
squinteyedsoutherner Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 198	If you look up "prince" in any decent dictionary you will notice that the word has several meanings. By some, Faramir is definitely a prince, by others he is not. The issue is what your friend means by "prince". Faramir is not of the old King's bloodline(one meaning). But he was clearly next in line (Aragorn aside) to function in all intents and purposes as a "King" upon his father's death (another meaning). It all depends on what your friend is "really" trying to argue when he uses the term "prince" and to which point in the narrative he is refering. Afterall, by the end of the story there is no question that Faramir is a Prince. Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 12-14-2002 at 07:42 PM.

12-16-2002, 06:54 PM	#10
Lollypopgurl Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 222	Well, I wouldn't call him a prince by blood. __________________ a violinist...

12-16-2002, 08:37 PM	#11
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	He did have more numenorean blood than most, which made him more 'regal', but I cannot remember if he was a descendant of the line of elendil. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-19-2002, 01:43 AM	#12
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	nods All the Stewards were descended from Elendil in some obscure way -- the answer is in the Appendices ("Númenorean Kings", I guess). __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

12-19-2002, 08:03 AM	#13
Elvellon Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Lindon Posts: 637	It all comes to what title the sons of the Steward had. In a feudal society hereditary noble titles were to be expected. Apparently the eldest son of the steward had the hereditary title of Captain of the White Tower, (as Ñolendil said), but I believe it is not unthinkable that they were also called “Princes of Gondor,” and indeed it may be likely, since they were the heirs of the ruling steward. The reason why it is likely is that, usually, the heirs of the suzerain of a kingdom couldn’t have a lesser title than that of other nobles of the kingdom. Indeed, in many countries (but not all) the title of prince was reserved to the heirs of the suzerain. Nevertheless, as far as I know, Tolkien never established the titles of the House of Hurin (the House of the Stewards), so no categorical affirmation can be made. __________________ **************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion

12-19-2002, 09:35 AM	#14
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Prince is usually reserved for the sons of the king and maybe nephews. Faramir could have some royal blood, but so could many others. Prince Imrahil is "of high blood" and "a kinsmen of the Lord", so more distant relations are princes, too, in ME. Faramir is a Captain of Gondor, whatever his bloodline may be, until he is entitled by Elessar. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

12-20-2002, 08:18 PM	#15
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I think the bottom line is that Captain Faramir of Minas Tirith became Prince Faramir of Emyn Arnen. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

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