Ability to Communicate with The One Ring

[Gordis]

I think you should keep in mind that while loremasters of Men knew the legend of Sauron's Rings, Frodo and Bilbo with all their interest in history had no idea about the Rings before Gandalf told them.

Lowlife like Ferny and the Isengarder most likely heard nothing at all about the matter - not even a fairy-tale. So if Saruman or the nazgul told the Isengarder that a hobbit had a little ring that could make him invisible, the spy would never be able to figure out the importance of the item. Or the spies could have been told that this particular hobbit had an ability to turn invisible, that's why he was wanted in Mordor.

I agree with Alcuin that there was some sort of ring-specific "ping" command the Ring responded to as opposed to general unfocused malice felt in the room. Note that the Ring "asked to be put on" not always when Frodo was in danger or faced a powerful evil creature. Let us go quickly over LOTR:

1. Hobbiton: Khamul talks with the Gaffer, Frodo eavesdrops - no urge to put on the Ring. ( Khamul is unaware of Frodo, no Ping command)
2. On the Stock-Road: Khamul passes by, Frodo feels a desire to put on the Ring. (Ping command by Khamul)
3. At night Khamul approaches sniffing -the desire to put on the Ring is much stronger.(Ping command by Khamul)
4. They see a nazgul at the top of the green bank and flee - no urge to put on the Ring. (No Ping command, because even if Khamul sees them he cannot follow).
5. At the Ferry - no desire to put on the Ring. (Same reason as above).
6. Old Man Willow - no desire to put on the Ring. (OMW knows no Ping, though his malice is strongly felt.)
7. Barrow-Wight - very strong desire to put on the Ring, almost irresisible.(Likely the WK taught the Wights the Ping command).
8. Common room in Bree - The Ring "puts itself on". (Ping coming either from the nazgul directly or via the Isengarder).
9. Weathertop - Frodo puts the Ring on. (Ping by the Witch-King)
10. At the Ford - no desire to put the Ring on. (Nazgul don't need Ping, they see the wraithy-Frodo well enough).

11. At Caradras - no desire to put the Ring on
12. Werewolves - no desire to put the Ring on
13. The Watcher - no desire to put the Ring on
14. Fight in Mazarbul chamber - - no desire to put the Ring on
15. The Balrog - - no desire to put the Ring on. (Interesting: here the external evil will must be very strong, but the Ring doesn't react.)
It seems obvious that the creatures of Moria didn't know the Ping command.

16. The ambush at Sarn-Gebir, a nazgul flies overhead - - no desire to put the Ring on (here likely the nazgul had no time to issue the Ping command, before Legolas shot his mount).
17. At Amon-Hen, Frodo felt no desire to put on the Ring, he only did it to escape from Baromir.
18. Emin Muil: Nazgul flies overhead, lightning, Frodo temporary looses sight, but feels no desire to put on the Ring (no Ping, as the nazgul in unaware of him).
19. Emin Muil: Gollum follows, the hobbits are aware of him and apprehensive, but Frodo feels no desire to put on the Ring (Gollum knows no Ping and the Ring doesn't want him anyway)
20. Approaches to Mordor - several nazgul overhead, but unaware of the hobbits. (No Ping).
21. Morgul Vale. The WK feels the Ring and issues a powerful "Ping". The Ring replies. Frodo feels possessed, and only the Phial saves him from revealing himself.
22. Sam in Cirith Ungol facing orcs. No desire to use the Ring.
22. All these cases in Mordor when hobbits hide and orcs seek them. No desire to use the Ring (Orcs use no Ping).

So, basically, the Ring "asks to be put on" only in connection with the nazgul, or creatures in league with them (Barrow-Wights), but not with even more powerful unrelated evil creatures like the Balrog or the Watcher.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I roll for disbelief, as we used to say in D&D. <Sound of percentile dice shaken.> Do you have any text or references for this, or is it just opinion? How can you construct an argument for this from what Tolkien left us? (I can’t spend a lot of time here now, so if you want to wave this off, I understand; but I don’t get this argument at all.)

It is based on pure logic. We know that:

a) Frodo felt the urge to put the Ring on
b) it was caused by something inside the room
c) it was not the Ring itself - I deem, because it would be sort of self-reflection, the Ring would be "pinging" itself, which I just find illogical given the way the situation is portrayed. There is a "third party" besides Frodo and the Ring. C causes A to but B on.
d) there was no Nazgul in the room.

Ergo, who remains? We need somebody or something in the room that calls the Ring. It's neither Nazgul, for they are outside, nor the Ring itself. Of course it was not Butterbur, nor Sam, nor Pippin, nor Strider, nor any of the more or less drunk Breelanders. The only one who was in the room and wanted the Ring to manifest itself was Ferny. (We can argue how much he knew, whether he knew consciously what he was looking for or whether he was just hoping for something enough attention-bringing to happen, but the basic idea is that he was looking for Frodo.) So, it was him who the Ring had reacted to.

To illustrate my explanation even better, I will use what Gordis posted now. I think there is one thing people on this thread have assumed so easily - this "pinging" thing. What exactly do we mean by that? I do not think it was necessary a spell or something of that sort. It was simply a focus of will, something that made the Ring manifest itself. But most of all, the way I am understanding it, pinging was not an action - i.e. not a certain pattern one has to do to "ping" the Ring - but a reaction. In other words: it's not that muttering "by Sauron, Lord of Mordor, wherever thou art, manifest yourself, O Ring of Power" would be the "pinging", but that anything that causes the Ring to manifest itself can be called "pinging". Is it clear what I have in mind?

Based on the evidence of Ring manifesting itself in Tolkien's books (you can compare it to Gordis' list in the last post), from Legatepedia, the definition of "pinging" would be:

"Any action of will by a subject, based on its conscious or subconscious wish to look for the Ring, which causes the Ring to respond, leading to an attempt of the bearer of the Ring to put the Ring on."

So, this, therefore, goes for Ferny as well. And if we were to assume that the Ring works this way, I can use modified Gordis' list to check. To make it easier to compare, I am dividing my former "definition" of Pinging into paraghraphs, so that we can verify whether they all were fulfilled:

Pinging is
a) an action of will
b) by a subject
c) based on conscious or subconscious wish to look for the Ring
d) causing the Ring to respond
e) leading to an attempt of the bearer to put the Ring on.

1. Hobbiton: Khamul talks with the Gaffer, Frodo eavesdrops - no urge to put on the Ring. (a) is not fulfilled - Khamul does not know about Frodo being nearby, therefore he is not driving his will to think of the Ring)
2. On the Stock-Road: Khamul passes by, Frodo feels a desire to put on the Ring (Khamul stops, the action is apparent as well as the wish, all prerequisites are fulfilled)
3. At night Khamul approaches sniffing -the desire to put on the Ring is much stronger.(same as above)
4. They see a nazgul at the top of the green bank and flee - no urge to put on the Ring. (like Gordis said, even if Khamul sees them he cannot follow - not fulfilling a) once again, because his focus is not now on calling the Ring, but on calling his mate who can lead him).
5. At the Ferry - no desire to put on the Ring. (Same reason as above).
6. Old Man Willow - no desire to put on the Ring. (c) is not fulfilled, in my opinion - OMW does not know about the Ring at all)
7. Barrow-Wight - very strong desire to put on the Ring, almost irresisible.(This raises an interesting question, and it would be for a stand-alone thread why Frodo wanted to put on the Ring in this situation. Personally I believe that it has to do with the Nazgul rousing the Barrow-Wights and all evil things in the area, so it may have been similar situation as with Ferny below, i.e. c) just subconsciously).
8. Common room in Bree - The Ring "puts itself on". (reaction to Ferny, who fulfils all prerequisites - for a) he indeed looks for the Ring, for c) probably just subconsciously, but he does both).
9. Weathertop - Frodo puts the Ring on. (W-K fulfils all the criteria, intentionally focusing on the Ring, and we are even told that in the book itself later)
10. At the Ford - no desire to put the Ring on. (Nazgul don't need Ping, they see the wraithy-Frodo well enough).

11. At Caradras - no desire to put the Ring on (likely, b) is not fulfilled)
12. Werewolves - no desire to put the Ring on (likely, a) is not fulfilled - they want just to eat them - nor c) )
13. The Watcher - no desire to put the Ring on (same as above)
14. Fight in Mazarbul chamber - - no desire to put the Ring on (same as above)
15. The Balrog - - no desire to put the Ring on. (obviously c) is not fulfilled. TB knows nothing about the Ring, being a primitive who lived thousands of years in a cave and not knowing what inventions did the modern world come to )

16. The ambush at Sarn-Gebir, a nazgul flies overhead - - no desire to put the Ring on (likely a) not being fulfilled, Nazgul not knowing that the Ring is nearby - same as in 1.).
17. At Amon-Hen, Frodo felt no desire to put on the Ring, he only did it to escape from Boromir.
18. Emyn Muil: Nazgul flies overhead, lightning, Frodo temporary looses sight, but feels no desire to put on the Ring (same as in 16.).
19. Emyn Muil: Gollum follows, the hobbits are aware of him and apprehensive, but Frodo feels no desire to put on the Ring (I believe it's not a) here, and possibly also d) in some way, it is indeed possible, as Gordis says, that the Ring had already abandoned Gollum a long time ago and it was simply a chapter of its "life" that was over for the Ring)
20. Approaches to Mordor - several nazgul overhead, but unaware of the hobbits. (No Ping).
21. Morgul Vale. (Indeed, all prerequisites fulfilled). The Ring replies. Frodo feels possessed, and only the Phial saves him from revealing himself.
22. Sam in Cirith Ungol facing orcs. No desire to use the Ring. (His personal choice, even though who knows. One might raise the question here whether the fact that Sam put the Ring on was not his own rationalising of his deed, "of course I had to do it", when he put the Ring on to hide from the Orcs. Sam put the Ring on, and when entering Mordor, he felt a strong urge to claim it as his own - that was "Pinging" on a sort of higher level, the Ring was already on his finger, but wanted to show itself to Sauron. Sauron was the "will" who was "pinging" the Ring here, but just "generally" - he did not know the Ring was in Mordor - but Mordor itself was simply filled with his evil will so strongly - being the "epicentre" - that the Ring was continuingly responding, being heavy etc. However, it was not anymore about putting it on - also, I believe the hobbits have developed a strong enough will for that, which Frodo failed only at the very end. The fact that they were in Mordor lead them to see that it's just black and white from now on, they just cannot put it on here anymore. Sam thinks about this clearly when he enters Mordor.)
22. All these cases in Mordor when hobbits hide and orcs seek them. No desire to use the Ring (I believe a) is not fulfilled here - again like in 1. etc., the Orcs did not know about the hobbits being there).

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

It is based on pure logic. We know that:

a) Frodo felt the urge to put the Ring on
b) it was caused by something inside the room
c) it was not the Ring itself - I deem, because it would be sort of self-reflection, the Ring would be "pinging" itself, which I just find illogical given the way the situation is portrayed. There is a "third party" besides Frodo and the Ring. C causes A to but B on.
d) there was no Nazgul in the room.

We don't know your b, c, or d for certain. Therefore we can't use them to make determinations, only educated guesses.

Regarding b, we don't know that the command came from inside the room, only that Frodo felt like that was probably the case. The implication of this feeling being stated twice in the text could simply mean the command came from close by...just outside for instance.

For c, we don't know that the Ring can't make it's wearer want to put it on; in fact many of us strongly suspect that it can embrace opportunities, whether "pinged" or not.

And though it is unlikely that a Nazgul was in the room, we don't know that d is true for a fact; and in light of the uncertainty regarding b, it doesn't really matter.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

We don't know your b, c, or d for certain. Therefore we can't use them to make determinations, only educated guesses.

Regarding b, we don't know that the command came from inside the room, only that Frodo felt like that was probably the case. The implication of this feeling being stated twice in the text could simply mean the command came from close by...just outside for instance.

For c, we don't know that the Ring can't make it's wearer want to put it on; in fact many of us strongly suspect that it can embrace opportunities, whether "pinged" or not.

And though it is unlikely that a Nazgul was in the room, we don't know that d is true for a fact; and in light of the uncertainty regarding b, it doesn't really matter.

Well, it is true that the latter ones are merely one way to look at things. However, I find them personally more likely than not. As for what you say about c), the Ring can of course do things by itself. But the narration says it really the way that Frodo and Ring are the subjects here and the impulse comes from somewhere else. If it came from the Ring, I believe the book would have said that it came from the Ring, and not from "something inside the room". And as for b), personally I take it for granted: the text says that it was a reaction to something inside the room, so I take it that it is. It is, of course, not closed to interpretation that it was merely Frodo's feeling, like you say. But it's about as much questionable as much we could question whether Frodo did not drown with the ship instead of sailing to the West, because we also have no other evidence than his as for what happened. And if we are about to question far-fetched assumptions, then assuming that a Nazgul was in the room is certainly farfetched.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, it is true that the latter ones are merely one way to look at things. However, I find them personally more likely than not.

Before Frodo has his “accident�, he felt that the urge to put on the Ring

seemed to him, somehow, as if the suggestion came to him from outside, from someone or something in the room. He resisted the temptation…

Came from “outside� what? Outside his own mind and will, most likely. “Someone or something� does not mean just “someone,� but either “someone or something�.

But there is another way to read this sentence. Tolkien is sparse with commas (see the excellent book, Eats, Shoots & Leaves, for a discussion of punctilious punctuation), so it is not possible to determine whether he meant “from outside Frodo’s will,� or

1. from outside the room
2. from someone inside (or outside) the room
3. from something inside (or outside) the room

or even

someone or something outside the room

I think it means, something or something outside Frodo’s will that he believed at that moment in the room, but since we are now parsing statements as if they were political declarations or we were Deconstructionists, the situation is murkier.

The Ring is a thing, and an appropriate focus for such a “temptation�. Clearly Frodo recognized this as a “temptation�, but having never before felt such an urge, and unfamiliar with the operation and powers of the Ring, he is far less likely to locate the source of the temptation than near the end of his quest, or after his encounter with Galadriel and her Mirror.

After the accident, the narration (Frodo would be the putative narrator with Tolkien his “translator�) says

Frodo … wondered if the Ring itself had not played him a trick; perhaps it had tried to reveal itself in response to some wish or command that was felt in the room.

This time, Frodo does not indicate that the “someone or something� was located in the room, but that it was “felt in the room.�

You may well assert that Ferny, who “would sell anything to anybody; or make mischief for amusement,� took gold or was otherwise convinced or coerced into allowing himself to be a focus for whatever necromancy the Nazgûl wove: I won’t dispute that. To assert that Ferny himself, or the Southerner, were the source of the Ring’s tempting Frodo to put it on is too far for me: Sauron would not trust any others but his Nazgûl, who had no will in the matter, to hunt for the Ring; and the Elves kept secret what they knew as best they could, even through the Council of Elrond when matters were most critical. How then do you propose that the Nazgûl, however befuddled or incompetent it might be (and there are threads on that subject at Entmoot), would reveal to Bill Ferny, the local ne’er-d-well, and a spy from Saruman, known traitor to Sauron, that they must concentrate all their little Mortal wills on awakening the Great Dingus and Terror of All Middle-earth? That it was “but a trifle Sauron fancies�? Sauron might well have learned from his spies that Thorin & Company knew about Bilbo’s magic ring (remember, he himself had told them about it), so mentioning it to Dain Ironfoot might not have been so great a risk – but to tell Ferny and a turncoat, two unreliable louts?

That’s too much for me.

Here’s my objection to your argument:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

b) it was caused by something inside the room

You don’t know that, as DPR has already pointed out. Frodo felt that it was inside the room. But remember, when he had the Ring on, and later as he was succumbing to the effects of the Morgul-knife, he could not see the normal clothes of the Ringwraiths but only them in their “wraithified� clothes. I suspect that the walls of the Inn were no great barrier to whatever the Nazgûl across the street from the Prancing Pony was doing. As an analogy, consider a radio or “wireless�, as Tolkien would have called it: he was of course quite familiar with them. And he was very much aware that a wireless worked quite well inside his house and through the walls of the Bird and Baby (Eagle and Child) where the Inklings held concourse.

It has been noted before that Tolkien did not make his characters omniscient: they made errors and sometimes conveyed information they believed true although it was in fact incorrect. Frodo might truthfully say, “I felt as if the temptation to put on the Ring came from within the room.� That does not mean that Frodo’s assessment at that time was correct, only that his recollection was.

Afterward, Frodo “wondered if the Ring itself …. had tried to reveal itself in response to some wish or command that was felt in the room.� It is a much finer distinction to say that Frodo’s temptation was “felt in the room,� and gives away that he was no longer sure the source of the “wish or command� was “in� the room.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

…if we are about to question far-fetched assumptions, then assuming that a Nazgul was in the room is certainly farfetched.

On this, I agree; but not as far-fetched as the notion that Bill Ferny or Saruman’s turncoat spy could arouse the One Ring.

What are our choices here?

1. Ferny or the spy summoned a response from the Ring,
2. a Nazgûl was in the room,
3. Ferny or the spy was in the room with an item that summoned a response from the Ring,
4. Ferny or the spy were enchanted by the Nazgûl with some necromancy that allowed it to use them as a “focus� in the room, perhaps some kind of possession, or
5. the Nazgûl summoned a response from the Ring from just outside the Inn, the walls of which were no barrier to its magic.

Of those, I think #1 is weakest, with the poorest textual support, least logical, and most difficult to defend. A Nazgûl in the room seems unlikely because of the unreasoning fear its unseen presence would evoke in the Men and Hobbits nearby. I think we all found the idea that Ferny or the spy had an item from the Nazgûl spurious. (If I’m wrong on that point, someone correct me.) Ferny or the spy enchanted by the Nazgûl with some necromancy is possible, I think, but unnecessarily complicated. (Wouldn’t there be some kind of ceremony for this, like “Double, double toil and trouble;/Fire burn, and caldron bubble�? How long would it take? Would it smell bad?)

The simplest explanation is that the Nazgûl on the other side of the street was summoning the Ring to reveal itself, just as Khamûl twice called upon it to reveal itself in the Woody End, and the Nazgûl on Weathertop caused it to reveal itself and its bearer on Weathertop. The walls of the Prancing Pony must be seen as no barrier to the summons; and we might well ask, why should they be?

-|-

(Added later)

It might be worth noting that in War of the Ring, “VIII Kirith Ungolâ€�, when Sam first puts on the Ring, he can see through the rocks of the pass of Cirith Ungol. (Page 190 in the paperback.) I think Tolkien had a clear idea that barriers in normal world were at least perceived differently in the wraith world, just as Frodo could see the “realâ€� clothing of the Ringwraiths rather than their normal clothes. In his essay “The PalantÃ*riâ€� in Unfinished Tales, he says that

The vision of the palantÃ*ri was not “blindedâ€� or “occludedâ€� by physical objects… so they could look through a mountain… They could see through walls but see nothing within rooms, caves, or vaults unless some light fell on it.

So not only for the Ring, but also for the palantÃ*ri, Tolkien had a notion that they could see through physical objects (with the limitation for the palantÃ*ri at least that they required that they objects they viewed were already in light).

I think any idea that the walls of the Prancing Pony were a barrier to whatever summons or “ping� issued by the Nazgûl to the Ring cannot be substantiated in the rest of Tolkien’s work.

[Gordis]

I think you all forget an important aspect of Arda magick - most of it was done by words. Words of a song, words of a spell, words of Command, words engraved on BD swords, Morgul daggers, Andurils and Glamdrings etc.

Why would the Ring be different? It had a spell written on it. We know that at the One's forging Sauron uttered the words: "Ash nazg etc.", that must have been indispensable for binding the other Rings. But for the necessity to utter this spell, unfortunately overheard by the Elves of Eregion, Sauron's original plan to enslave the Elves might have worked.

So it stands to reason that to really use the Ring, its wielder had to command the Ring not only by his will, not only had to wish to do something, but he had to use appropriate worded commands as well.

That's why perhaps there is all this talk that the wannabe Ringlord like Gandalf or Saruman had to have enough time to learn to use the Ring, before being able to use its full potential and try to confront Sauron. Likely the new ringlord had to find the right words of Command for the Ring.

I don't see why "Ping" we are talking about would be different, why it has to be a "wish" or "evil will" but not some specific words. Much more likely the Ping was a SPELL - a low-level command. The Ring was sure to "hear it" and could respond, if It so wished, but of course It was not compelled to respond as the spell-caster had no authority over It..

In this case, if we indeed accept that "suggestion" came from INSIDE the room, why not consider the possibility that the Southerner muttered the Pinging spell, taught by the Nazgul, at the right moment?

The Nazgul had no need to explain to the spies the WHY of it. He had no need to tell them about the existence of the Ring, he had no need to translate the spell. He could simply order the Isengarder (or Ferny) to mutter "Ash nazg gimbat" or some other words in the High Black Tongue and the ruffians would never be the wiser.
I don't think, Legate, the spell was as straightforward as "by Sauron, Lord of Mordor, wherever thou art, manifest yourself, O Ring of Power". Certainly it was not in the Common tongue but in the Black tongue - gibberish to the uneducated ruffians.

Alternatively, of course, the nazgul could have "pinged" the Ring himself from outside, as Alcuin suggests. But I highly doubt that the nazgul could see through walls, or that the shutters of the Common Room were left open. Remember Merry's tale? he was standing under the lantern, but he doesn't mention the windows of the Common room as another source of light. I believe the Nazgul hanging opposite the inn couldn't see the happenings in the Common Room. Then how could he choose the right moment for the Ping? He couldn't know that the hobbit was at the moment the center of attention in a crowded room. Because if Frodo were sitting quietly in a dark corner, or was not in the common room at all no one would likely notice he had disappeared for a while. As it was, the moment was chosen perfectly. This perfect timing, with Frodo distracted and all eyes on him, could only be achieved by somebody inside the room.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Ferny or the spy enchanted by the Nazgûl with some necromancy is possible, I think, but unnecessarily complicated. (Wouldn’t there be some kind of ceremony for this, like “Double, double toil and trouble;/Fire burn, and caldron bubble”? How long would it take? Would it smell bad?)

You joke, but remember that, unlike Ferny, the Isengarder had been ENSPELLED to the service of Mordor by the Morgul Lord himself:

[The Witch-King] put therefore the Shadow of Fear on the Dunlending, and sent him on to Bree to continue spying; but warned him that he was now in the service of Mordor, and that if ever he tried to return to Isengard they would slay him with torture.-UT

I guess this "Shadow of Fear" (with capital letters) was a spell, binding the Isengarder to Mordor. Therefore I believe the nazgul could rely on the Isengarder much more than on Ferny who was just a never-do-well, eager to sell anything to anybody. In the end Ferny betrayed the Nazgul in his small mean way: he sold Bill the Pony to the very company his employers tried to get stranded without means of transportation or wished to slow down considerably.

[Attalus]

I dislike the term 'ping' as applied to the One Ring, but that doesn't mean that there was no way for Sauron's servants to make the Ring aware of their proximity. I have long been curious about why the Black Speech verse was engraved upon the Ring, as well as how Cerebrimbor 'became aware' of Sauron at the moment he uttered these words. Why not assume that "Ash nazgd..." was the spell that Sauron put upon the One that gave it power over the other Rings of Power? Celebrimbor held the Three, and perhaps they made him aware just as they were bound by the spell. Could the uttering of that spell by the Nazgul make it aware of them?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, I have technically said all my points already and I am not going to repeat them here anymore. I disagree with any seemingly far-fetched and, in my opinion, too complicated constructions, while the solution is simple and present: Frodo feels it coming "...from someone or something in the room", so why should we think it was not IN the room. Any Nazgul outside thus falls away, and since we seem to more or less agree that a Nazgul in the common room seems pretty nonsensish, the only explanation is good old Ferny. And his will.

As for Gordis' note about spells, point taken, however, we have to consider few things. First, there was no real "magic" in Middle-Earth, not in the way we know it from Dungeons&Dragons and similar things, although probably Sauron's sorcery was closer to that - but the "real", Elvish "magic" was different. Also, it's not true that always it was dependant on words. The WK did not say anything when "pinging" the Ring in Imlad Morgul, neither did Khamul in the Greenhill county. Just the focused will, and this was, I believe, also the case of Ferny. (And, of course, Gordis, my example with "by Sauron, Lord of Mordor, wherever thou art, manifest yourself, O Ring of Power" was translated into Westron But I don't think it was either "hughazh shagammu Mordor, uzgush shagbagur, Ash Nazg shamgadbug!" nor anything similar )

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, I have technically said all my points already and I am not going to repeat them here anymore. I disagree with any seemingly far-fetched and, in my opinion, too complicated constructions, while the solution is simple and present: Frodo feels it coming "...from someone or something in the room", so why should we think it was not IN the room. Any Nazgul outside thus falls away, and since we seem to more or less agree that a Nazgul in the common room seems pretty nonsensish, the only explanation is good old Ferny. And his will.

I basically agree about the command coming from inside the room, though I believe the main one was the Isengarder, not Ferny, by reasons given in my previous post.
And the "will" part -I don't think the ruffians had any will worth speaking about. But we have been over it already.

As for Gordis' note about spells, point taken, however, we have to consider few things. First, there was no real "magic" in Middle-Earth, not in the way we know it from Dungeons&Dragons and similar things, although probably Sauron's sorcery was closer to that - but the "real", Elvish "magic" was different.

Sure it was, but here we deal not with "Elven magic," but with pure and simple Morgul magick. Don't try to persuade me, please, that it doesn't exist. Also Gandalf trying to open the door of Moria and muttering spells in all possible languages of ME speaks volumes, whatever Tolkien may have written in one of his letters. There were spells and sorcerers used them - it is plain from the text of LOTR.

Also, it's not true that always it was dependant on words. The WK did not say anything when "pinging" the Ring in Imlad Morgul, neither did Khamul in the Greenhill county.

When contacting the Ring the WK must have used Osanwe - he was addressing a sentient or semi-sentient object, not some city Gate. In the latter case, yes, he had to yell the Words of Command. Osanwe could be used to transmit spells. The Elves in Eregion obviously heard Sauron all the way from Mt.Doom not with their pointy-ears either, but with "other senses". Ferny and such like of course had no idea how to use Osanwe, so they had to mutter words.

Just the focused will, and this was, I believe, also the case of Ferny.

Right, and IMO the spy's will was focused and enforced by a spell. Nazgul's will could reach the Ring unfocussed, I believe, if the Ring was receptive, but the ruffian needed something to make the Ring react. Otherwise why would It reply to a command /wish of some low-life hardly better than an orc? The Isengarder must have presented some identification as an agent of Mordor otherwise how would the Ruling Ring know that he was not some lowly evil-doer who simply fancies jewelry or (worse) an agent of the enemy? A specific spell in the BS known only to Sauron (the same one he used back in the SA when trying to find the Ring in his messy bedroom) would serve such purpose perfectly. It wasn't necessarily a complicated spell, but one familiar to the Ring.

(And, of course, Gordis, my example with "by Sauron, Lord of Mordor, wherever thou art, manifest yourself, O Ring of Power" was translated into Westron But I don't think it was either "hughazh shagammu Mordor, uzgush shagbagur, Ash Nazg shamgadbug!" nor anything similar )

I think from the Moria chapter we can glean something about spells:

'I do not know,' answered Gandalf. `But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength.
[...]Then something came into the chamber – I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.
'What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces.

I would speculate there were Words of Command (short commands strongly enforced by the Will and Power of the magician) and simple spells (longer incantations that when used didn't need much power from the spell-caster). Ferny and the Isengarder certainly were not able to use Words of command, but a simple spell they could learn, I guess.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I basically agree about the command coming from inside the room, though I believe the main one was the Isengarder, not Ferny, by reasons given in my previous post.

Yes, you are likely right, I have been speaking just generally - Southerner or Ferny, basically it does not matter that much, simply "one of these folks". Another good point is that there were two of them - two people focused on finding the Ring is more than one, the will to find the Ring is more apparent there.

And the "will" part -I don't think the ruffians had any will worth speaking about. But we have been over it already.

Nah, note that I don't mind will in the sense of any "willpower" or anything. I mean "focus", or "focused thought". Simply, the fact that they were desperately thinking about the Ring (or whatever they were supposed to look for) - and you surely must agree that even a "simple ruffian" is capable of that, in the same way as a common peasant is desperately looking for his lost dog, sheep, fork, or five silver pieces. And, a related thing, I find it far more probable, or, far simpler to think of the Ring being "activated" just this way, by the seekers' will to find it, than to think of these simple ruffians learning any spells, even if it were to be short ones.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Nah, note that I don't mind will in the sense of any "willpower" or anything. I mean "focus", or "focused thought". Simply, the fact that they were desperately thinking about the Ring (or whatever they were supposed to look for) - and you surely must agree that even a "simple ruffian" is capable of that, in the same way as a common peasant is desperately looking for his lost dog, sheep, fork, or five silver pieces. And, a related thing, I find it far more probable, or, far simpler to think of the Ring being "activated" just this way, by the seekers' will to find it, than to think of these simple ruffians learning any spells, even if it were to be short ones.

I see what you mean, but it doesn't explain why the Ring chose to respond and show itself to two lowly ruffians that had nothing apparent to connect them with Mordor? Why then didn't It try to reveal itself to Mordor orcs or to the Balrog or to Gandalf for that matter, back during the Quest of Erebor? How did the Isengarder make it clear to the Ring that he was an authorized representative of the Ringwraiths? A spell would do it at once.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I see what you mean, but it doesn't explain why the Ring chose to respond and show itself to two lowly ruffians that had nothing apparent to connect them with Mordor? Why then didn't It try to reveal itself to Mordor orcs or to the Balrog or to Gandalf for that matter, back during the Quest of Erebor? How did the Isengarder make it clear to the Ring that he was an authorized representative of the Ringwraiths? A spell would do it at once.

We all know the Ring is "clever", that it has a will of its own (as stated by Gandalf). The Balrog would have not brought it to Sauron, of course, on this side, there was no hope. Also, there were too many people around involved, who could stop it - like Gandalf. With the Orcs, it probably did its best: it didn't occur to me until now, but what if the attack of the Orcs in Moria was lead, at least for some part, by the presence of the Ring? That was the same as in Isildur's case. If the Orcs killed everybody, there was a large chance for the Ring that one of them will pick it, and of course, an Orc is far likely to bring it to the Dark Lord than a group of fifty Gandalfs. Also, note that the Watcher attacked Frodo as the first one - that was clearly the doing of the Ring, and the same situation. Even though the Ring would not probably gain much by being dragged into the slimy water, it was still better than if it was in a company of Gandalf, Aragorn and other distasteful creatures. (And I guess this is also the answer to the question why it did not reveal itself to Gandalf. It wanted to get back to its Master, not to some Gandalf, if it was possible.)

Now just, why did it want to show itself to some ruffians, then? I guess the answer is clear: in Middle-Earth, you are very often able to discern who is good and who is bad, on some basic level, and the maliciousness was quite clear in Ferny. I believe the Ring reacted to the will to find it, like I said, and this will was connected to his evil nature.

(Another objection to the cases you name was also mentioned above: the Balrog did NOT want to FIND the Ring. It had no will - ha, the magic word! - to find it. Ferny and the Isengarder did.)

Moreover, I believe the Ring was aware that the Nazgul are trying to find it. Of course. Even if it did not "know" that they were very close (in Bree itself, actually!), it happened in a few recent days that the Nazgul and the Ring almost "met", and the Ring was being called by the Nazgul... it was obvious that anybody looking for the Ring would be a "friend" who might bring it closer to its Master. And I believe Ferny&co.'s thoughts were indeed so transparent (the desire, combined with the greed or whatever lead them to help the Riders) that the Ring would have known why the person is wishing it to manifest.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I'm not so much disagreeing with any particular conclusions as with the method of arriving there.

Probably + Probably != Definitely and the more "probablys" that are added to the mix, the less definite the conclusion must be.

The command probably came from within the room because the Professor brings up Frodo's feeling that it did not once, but twice.
There was probably not a Nazgul in the room for the reasons already discussed in this thread.
It probably wasn't solely an act of the Ring, because the Ring had usually only acted that way in other situations where there was someone seeking it actively.

We have too many probablys and not enough definites to come to a firm conclusion, IMO. The best we can do is compare liklihoods.

[Gordis]

Of course we are comparing likelihoods... Unless someone finds a Tolkien manuscript with the exact spell used by the nazgul

But speculating is
1. fun
2. it leads to some probable conclusions. If everything else is eliminated as improbable...

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I like these sorts of threads, too, until someone decides someone else is wrong or that someone else is clearly right, when there is no clear consensus on the matter. Just trying to nip a little dogmatism I observed in the bud, that's all.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

With the Orcs, it probably did its best: it didn't occur to me until now, but what if the attack of the Orcs in Moria was lead, at least for some part, by the presence of the Ring? That was the same as in Isildur's case.

I am almost sure that was the case in Moria. Note that not only the Watcher but the orc chieftain unerringly chose to attack Frodo out of the company of nine.

If the Orcs killed everybody, there was a large chance for the Ring that one of them will pick it, and of course, an Orc is far likely to bring it to the Dark Lord than a group of fifty Gandalfs.

Yet, when with Gollum in the caves, the Ring clearly didn't want to go to Orcs. It had lots of opportunities to betray Gollum to orcs while he was hunting.

Also, note that the Watcher attacked Frodo as the first one - that was clearly the doing of the Ring, and the same situation. Even though the Ring would not probably gain much by being dragged into the slimy water, it was still better than if it was in a company of Gandalf, Aragorn and other distasteful creatures.

It is not necessarily that the Ring deliberately called to the Watcher or to Isildur's orcs - maybe they were drawn to it all by themselves...

(And I guess this is also the answer to the question why it did not reveal itself to Gandalf. It wanted to get back to its Master, not to some Gandalf, if it was possible.)

I think it perceived Gandalf (maybe perceived Narya) and tried to appear as innocent as possible.

Now just, why did it want to show itself to some ruffians, then? I guess the answer is clear: in Middle-Earth, you are very often able to discern who is good and who is bad, on some basic level, and the maliciousness was quite clear in Ferny. I believe the Ring reacted to the will to find it, like I said, and this will was connected to his evil nature.

Oh but there is lot of evil NOT connected with Sauron (I won't be annoying so I won't post the quote ) - especially such ordinary, mean sort of evil as ruffians's.

(Another objection to the cases you name was also mentioned above: the Balrog did NOT want to FIND the Ring. It had no will - ha, the magic word! - to find it. Ferny and the Isengarder did.)

I think the Balrog felt some unknown object of Power in his domain and was drawn to it. Consider it : Balin and Co. spent several years in Moria, started colonizing it, etc., before the Balrog finally had some objections. Both Gandalf and Aragorn had been through Moria before - again no problem with the Balrog. This time DB reacted quite fast - so he was really interested to get this Fellowship.

Moreover, I believe the Ring was aware that the Nazgul are trying to find it. Of course. Even if it did not "know" that they were very close (in Bree itself, actually!), it happened in a few recent days that the Nazgul and the Ring almost "met", and the Ring was being called by the Nazgul... it was obvious that anybody looking for the Ring would be a "friend" who might bring it closer to its Master.

Not obvious at all. It could perfectly well be an enemy agent, one of those preventing the nazgul to get the Ring. These two ruffians could have been independent thieves or Saruman's agents.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And I believe Ferny&co.'s thoughts were indeed so transparent (the desire, combined with the greed or whatever lead them to help the Riders) that the Ring would have known why the person is wishing it to manifest.

Here you attribute to the Ring a strong mind-reading ability. Not impossible, no, but less likely, IMO than to suppose that a simple spell was used. Come on, even the dumbest Men or Orcs could learn a few words...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

We have too many probablys and not enough definites to come to a firm conclusion, IMO. The best we can do is compare liklihoods.

And that's what we are doing. I am by no means denying discussion, and if you think so, you are mistaken. However, we have been turning around with the same arguments in circles for far too long. I said that unless somebody came up with something better (which I doubt), I am not going to let myself convinced in this case - you might as well start questioning whether Bilbo was indeed a Hobbit and not an Elf, after all, nothing is impossible, it's just the author who says it on several places. For somebody, perhaps this border would be enough to cross, for me, it's already enough to say that Frodo felt the calling came from inside the room.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Yet, when with Gollum in the caves, the Ring clearly didn't want to go to Orcs. It had lots of opportunities to betray Gollum to orcs while he was hunting.

Yep, I think it was not the right time still. Remember what's been said, the Ring "woke up" when its master once again gained strength. It was "safely deposited", so to say, until Sauron manifested himself in M-E strongly enough for the Ring to be drawn back to it.

It is not necessarily that the Ring deliberately called to the Watcher or to Isildur's orcs - maybe they were drawn to it all by themselves...

Well, certainly not. It's mentioned there particularly that the Ring's malice has drawn the Orcs close, and also there is this famous note after the Watcher's attack that "Gandalf did not say aloud what he was thinking: that the thing attacked Frodo first of all". These are clear hints to what was going on here, and it's clear what the author was meaning to say here.

I think it perceived Gandalf (maybe perceived Narya) and tried to appear as innocent as possible.

Yes, true indeed. I am not sure about Narya (Narya probably also tried to hide itself, for sure), although it's true that Galadriel seemed to show Nenya to Frodo in reaction to the fact that it was of no use to hide it anymore anyway (i.e. that due to the presence of the Ring, it would have been clear what it is).

Oh but there is lot of evil NOT connected with Sauron (I won't be annoying so I won't post the quote ) - especially such ordinary, mean sort of evil as ruffians's.

Sure, but no ordinary ruffians usually seek for the Ring. A malicious ruffian would be indeed of little interest to the Ring, but I imagine it rather the way like: "Ha, somebody's desperately thinking of me! Now who? These two ruffians? Hmm... I sense the Dark Side in them! Good, let's go for it." That's a bit simplified version, but basically the idea holds. And "putting two and two together", like I said in my previous post, with the fact that the Nazgul were looking for it, the Ring could have been pretty "convinced" (if you can say that about an object) that he stumbled upon some people who might "help" it find the Nazgul.

I think the Balrog felt some unknown object of Power in his domain and was drawn to it. Consider it : Balin and Co. spent several years in Moria, started colonizing it, etc., before the Balrog finally had some objections. Both Gandalf and Aragorn had been through Moria before - again no problem with the Balrog. This time DB reacted quite fast - so he was really interested to get this Fellowship.

Yes, that's a valid point. But I think Balrog hardly concerned himself with the Ring, it might have been, I think, more like "What kind of a power is the heck trying to intrude MY realm? Let's go and kick it out!"

Not obvious at all. It could perfectly well be an enemy agent, one of those preventing the nazgul to get the Ring. These two ruffians could have been independent thieves or Saruman's agents.

I was aware of this possibility and thought you are going to ask this. But I believe the Ring would have been willing to take the risk. First, it of course "knew" nothing of Saruman or other possible contenders for the Ring. Second, it would not have minded even going to Saruman, if it came to that. It tried to take Boromir, after all, who would have brought it to Minas Tirith. Saruman was little different. But anyway, we still have this factor of the Nazgul being there and looking for it, like I said above. By simple logic, any spy is likely to work for them in this situation. Also, even if not, any evil creature taking the Ring won't get far: it would have problems to escape the Riders, who would pursue it, and a corrupted creature would have likely even far less chance to do that than Frodo, because it's corrupted and far more prone to use the Ring (which, of course, won't help it against the Riders here, quite the contrary). In any case, I think being owned by somebody evil is always more positive for the Ring than being owned by some Frodo, simply for the reasons mentioned above - sooner or later, the dark power will consume that person, and with corrupted ones, it works far easier, of course.

Here you attribute to the Ring a strong mind-reading ability. Not impossible, no, but less likely, IMO than to suppose that a simple spell was used. Come on, even the dumbest Men or Orcs could learn a few words...

Well, but that touches the very basis of sorcery in Middle-Earth - was it really dependant just on words alone? Would even a hobbit child muttering "ash nazg whatever" being able to "ping" the Ring? I am not as easily convinced. But what do you think?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, certainly not. It's mentioned there particularly that the Ring's malice has drawn the Orcs close, and also there is this famous note after the Watcher's attack that "Gandalf did not say aloud what he was thinking: that the thing attacked Frodo first of all". These are clear hints to what was going on here, and it's clear what the author was meaning to say here.

I am not denying the facts, I think I wasn't clear enough. I believe the Ring has its normal "aura" (hate the word) of Power and malice that can be percieved by orcs, by nazgul, by Watchers, Balrogs, and wizards regardless of the intentions of the Ring itself. (The Silmarils and the Palantiri, not being sentient, also seemed to have this aura of power, so attractive to everyone). The Ring is capable to increase this aura to draw somebody to it (as it likely did with Isildur's orcs and with nazgul) or it can deliberately decrease the aura to hide and appear innocent (like it did with Gandalf in Bilbo's hands). So, what I was saying is that both the Watcher and the Balrog likely were sensitive enough to percieve the usual Ring's aura of power and malice - while the Ring wasn't deliberately trying to attract them.

Yes, that's a valid point. But I think Balrog hardly concerned himself with the Ring, it might have been, I think, more like "What kind of a power is the heck trying to intrude MY realm? Let's go and kick it out!"

He likely knew nothing about Rings, but he felt a Great power in his domain - greater power than Gandalf's Narya (Gandaf was not attacked on his previous trip, though he may have made his Ring tone down its power). Naturally DB was interested and wished to get it, whatever it may have been, or at least kick it out, if he wished nothing but peace.

In any case, I think being owned by somebody evil is always more positive for the Ring than being owned by some Frodo, simply for the reasons mentioned above - sooner or later, the dark power will consume that person, and with corrupted ones, it works far easier, of course.

Yes, that is true.

Well, but that touches the very basis of sorcery in Middle-Earth - was it really dependant just on words alone? Would even a hobbit child muttering "ash nazg whatever" being able to "ping" the Ring? I am not as easily convinced. But what do you think?

I am not an expert, but I think so. Moria doors opened regardless of who said "mellon". It only had to be the right word.
Practically, what "ring-ping" is? Not a command, certainly. It is not like breaking city Gates or lighting the end of your staff... It is simply words, or mind message, to attract the ring's attention, like saying to it: "I work for Sauron, please reveal Yourself", and what's more proving it, because you use the password, the right spell known to the Ring.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I am not denying the facts, I think I wasn't clear enough. I believe the Ring has its normal "aura" (hate the word) of Power and malice that can be percieved by orcs, by nazgul, by Watchers, Balrogs, and wizards regardless of the intentions of the Ring itself. (The Silmarils and the Palantiri, not being sentient, also seemed to have this aura of power, so attractive to everyone). The Ring is capable to increase this aura to draw somebody to it (as it likely did with Isildur's orcs and with nazgul) or it can deliberately decrease the aura to hide and appear innocent (like it did with Gandalf in Bilbo's hands). So, what I was saying is that both the Watcher and the Balrog likely were sensitive enough to percieve the usual Ring's aura of power and malice - while the Ring wasn't deliberately trying to attract them.

Yes, I see. Well, that I can more or less side with.

He likely knew nothing about Rings, but he felt a Great power in his domain - greater power than Gandalf's Narya (Gandaf was not attacked on his previous trip, though he may have made his Ring tone down its power). Naturally DB was interested and wished to get it, whatever it may have been, or at least kick it out, if he wished nothing but peace.

Well, I think the thing about "aura" is not as strong either - especially with the Elven Rings. Perhaps even the Balrog would have needed to be stirred, in your version, first to note the Ring. I.e., if he didn't know that somebody is lurking up there in the first place, perhaps he did not even know that some power had entered his realm. He might have had just a vague feeling, like, what's wrong with me today, either there's a pressure change in the air, or maybe something else; maybe on the surface, five thousand Orcs have been killed somewhere ("as if a thousand voices suddenly cried in horror... and were silenced"). Only after hearing that somebody actually entered Moria, he might add two and two and think that this "change in the air" and the intruder are in some way connected to each other.

I am not an expert, but I think so. Moria doors opened regardless of who said "mellon". It only had to be the right word.
Practically, what "ring-ping" is? Not a command, certainly. It is not like breaking city Gates or lighting the end of your staff... It is simply words, or mind message, to attract the ring's attention, like saying to it: "I work for Sauron, please reveal Yourself", and what's more proving it, because you use the password, the right spell known to the Ring.

Yes, yes, I see now. You are right about Moria - although that was really a simple "spell", certainly also something different from lighting the end of your staff or storming the gate as well. And I agree that any "pinging" of the Ring - if a thing like that existed in the form of a spell - may have been of the same kind. But I feel that all the things concerning the Ring can be explained as well even without the existence of any such spell - that would be, in the way I outlined above. I am not denying the possibility, I am just saying that there is an equally good different explanation available.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am not denying the possibility, I am just saying that there is an equally good different explanation available.

I agree - various explanations are possible.