Why did the Nazgûl drop Merry in Bree?

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

My login timed out, and I ended up deleting a detailed post about the possible time of the attack on the Inn. I'll try to summarize it again.

When I first tried to think of when the Inn might have been attacked I thought midnight sounded literary and appropriate. Then I recalled some information I recently learned about the sleep patterns of pre-industrial people.

Before the advent of the electric light, people would routinely go to sleep not very long after dark (called "first sleep" across many languages and cultures), sleep for several hours, then awaken and use the outhouse, grab a snack, make a booty call, and perform other mundane tasks for an hour or two, then return to sleep until dawn. (Roger Ekirch's history book "At Day's Close" as well as modern sleep research supports this.)

That tells me that a midnight attack wouldn't be wise, since the attacker would be likely to find at least some people awake and about.

So when would the populace most likely be deepest in slumber? The same time the Nazgul choose to attack the house in Crickhollow. The hour that is also coldest and darkest, just before dawn. Sunrise at that time of year is probably shortly after 6am, so we're looking at probably some time around 5am.

It fits the normal sleep pattern of individuals in such a society as Bree and it fits the established pattern of the Nazgul (if two events can make a pattern).

I agree with this, and regret the "long post" that was lost. For long posts, I type them out in Word or similar programs and save them. That comes in useful on Tolkien forums when somebody raises old questions like "Who really slew the Witch-King?"

[Alcuin]

DPR, the website I used to get the times for London’s sunset and dusk say that sunrise the following day should be

05:07 - Astronomical Twilight Begins
05:47 - Nautical Twilight Begins
06:26 - Civil Twilight Begins
06:59 - Sunrise

Dawn should begin about 6:30, with sunrise at 7.

Hammond and Scull complain that the cock crowed in Crickhollow before the Black Riders broke down the door of Frodo’s house. RC, “Knife in the Dark”, 176 (I: 188):

…traditionally the cock crows to signal dawn…, at which time ghosts and apparitions must vanish…

However, Tolkien demonstrates once again that he has better insight even than his friendly critics. My grandmother lived on a farm and kept chickens. They start crowing well before sunrise, typically when it’s still dark. That’s one way farmers awakened before dawn to check on their animals in the days before alarm clocks. The chickens could have been up as early as a quarter of 6, long before 6:30.

Dr. Attalus is right: you’re safer to use Word or some other word processor (anyone remember WordPerfect?) to hammer out your post.

BTW, if anyone wants to copy and paste from the time-line table, there is an HTML version at this link, or just click on any of the graphics of the chart.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

My login timed out, and I ended up deleting a detailed post about the possible time of the attack on the Inn. I'll try to summarize it again.

When I first tried to think of when the Inn might have been attacked I thought midnight sounded literary and appropriate. Then I recalled some information I recently learned about the sleep patterns of pre-industrial people.

Before the advent of the electric light, people would routinely go to sleep not very long after dark (called "first sleep" across many languages and cultures), sleep for several hours, then awaken and use the outhouse, grab a snack, make a booty call, and perform other mundane tasks for an hour or two, then return to sleep until dawn. (Roger Ekirch's history book "At Day's Close" as well as modern sleep research supports this.)

That tells me that a midnight attack wouldn't be wise, since the attacker would be likely to find at least some people awake and about.

So when would the populace most likely be deepest in slumber? The same time the Nazgul choose to attack the house in Crickhollow. The hour that is also coldest and darkest, just before dawn. Sunrise at that time of year is probably shortly after 6am, so we're looking at probably some time around 5am.

It fits the normal sleep pattern of individuals in such a society as Bree and it fits the established pattern of the Nazgul (if two events can make a pattern).

The first point I agree very much on. The Nazgûl would have seen enough homes alight and neither would midnight necessarily be the darkest hour. I would think though that the Nazgûl, if they were judging what hour the most people were asleep, I would presume they knew little about first and second sleep. Being Nazgûl I can't see exactly them being able to imagine this as they did not themselves sleep. And I don't think seeing your horse sleep counts as any experience with this

But if it is true that the coldest and darkest hour is in the hour just before dawn (in northern Europe this varies greatly between the seasons I believe, with a great variation between the summer and the winter) then it probably is so that the Nazgûl attacked then.

I think am though more inclined to believe that they attacked around 3am to 4am at night.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

The Nazgul were all once Men. Of course they knew the sleep pattern. Everyone knew it; it was second nature in the time before electric lights. And as you say, the candles and lamps alight during the waking hour(s) after midnight would be obvious to the Nazgul and they would have to wait, regardless of their knowledge of sleep patterns.

Sunrise for September 30 in London is 7:00AM Daylight Savings Time, according to this site (I couldn't figure out how to use Alcuin's link):
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldcloc...&afl=-11&day=1
And we have to assume there was no "daylight savings time" in Bree, making it a 6:00AM sunrise.

Combine that information with the method of attack set at Crickhollow and you have the hour or so before dawn (between 4:30 and 5:00) as the time of the attack.

EDIT: Changed 29th to 30th

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

And we have to assume there was no "daylight savings time" in Bree, making it a 6:00AM sunrise.

Oh, good grief! Did I overlook Daylight Savings Time?! Do I have to recalculate that whole table for the rough time-line?!!

Didn't Ben Franklin suggest Daylight Savings Time as a joke to parody Parisians who arose so late in the day?

[Gordis]

UH-oh, Sorry I had no time today for this discussion. It will have to wait till tomorrow.

In the timelines I have studied I definitely remember reading that the Inn and the house at Crickhollow were attacked at about the same time. So it all fits.

[CAB]

Overall I like your timeline and central theory very much, Alcuin.

I agree with Gordis's and your (revised) idea that the third Nazgul went to inform the Witch King after Frodo's Ring-incident. Your theory is better supported this way since, if the Nazgul had this trick up their sleeves, it would have been a strange choice to send the messenger on the long trip to find the Witch King without first attempting to "ping the Ring".

I could be off base here, but the timing of the events after 9:45 for Merry and after 10:00 for Aragorn and the remaining Hobbits seems a bit stretched to me. Merry's bravery (or silliness or umm…being drawn) in following a Nazgul through an unfamiliar town at night would be extraordinary if it lasted more than just a few minutes. Also, the timeline leaves a minimum of 30 minutes between Merry following the Nazgul and Nob discovering him. If he walked at a normal pace for the majority of this time, wouldn't Merry have walked right out of a small town like Bree? If he didn't spend the majority of the time walking, then he was eavesdropping/passed out in the middle of the road for quite a while before the Nazgul did anything with him.

Concerning Aragorn and the rest of the Hobbits (while freely admitting that I haven't read this portion of the story for a few years) I recall that we are present for what has to be most (or close to most) of the time spent between Aragorn meeting the Hobbits in the parlor and Merry bursting in. Half an hour minimum seems a bit long here.

I don't think that these objections (if they are valid) cause any problems concerning the main premise that a Nazgul played a role in causing Frodo's Ring-incident.

[CAB]

I don't know, Olmer. The road runs from north to south through Bree for approximately 7000 feet. If Bree was only 70 acres, then it would have been a band 440 feet wide along the road. This can't be correct. If Bree was 70 hectares (1 hectare is about 2.5 acres), then the band would have been 1100 feet wide. But according to the map 1100 feet from the road wouldn't have reached the hedge to the west (even if the entire 1100 feet was on the west side of the road) or a large proportion of the houses to the east (even if the entire 1100 feet was on the east side of the road).

Like I said, I don't know much about this. Still, according to this map the dike and hedge were about 2.5 miles long yet still didn't come anywhere close to encircling the whole town. Does that sound like the Bree that Frodo and Co. encounter? If these distances are correct, then the Hobbits living at the end of the road winding up the hillside had to walk about a mile and a half to get to their local tavern. Poor saps. If they needed to get from their homes to the south gate, they had a two and a half mile walk ahead of them, through what Tolkien described as a village. Seems like a rather large village to me.

Gordis, I like your sequence of events concerning the early departure of Ferny and the Southerner, the Nazgul following them, and this causing Merry to notice and then follow the Nazgul. Makes sense.

I think some of your times are greatly stretched due to working with a map that depicts Bree as being much larger than it should be. For instance, there is no way that the time between Aragorn meeting the Hobbits in the parlor and Merry's return should/could have been over an hour. I would like to wait and see what Alcuin has to say about the map situation before making any more comments regarding the distances in Bree.

Originally Posted by Gordis

But a lot of time passes between Butterbur coming to the parlor and the sending of Nob to look for Merry. At least 15 min, I think. Thus Alcuin, you should postpone Nob’s departure to 10.30, IMO.

Actually, Alcuin's timeline agrees with these times. If they arrived at the beginning of the 10:15 to 10:30 block and Nob left at the end of it, then it accommodates your times, Gordis.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Did the nazgul make acquaintance with Ferny all on their own? Did they "chance" upon him or did they get the info about him from the Dunlending during his questioning on the road south of Bree? Did Harry Goatleaf sent them to Ferny? Anyway there is a possibility that on Sept 26 the nazgul didn’t meet Ferny at all, so maybe they didn’t go straight to Ferny’s house on Sept. 29. Perhaps they only got there following the Isengarder on his way out of the Inn.

Good question. If I recall correctly, in The Hunt for the Ring, it is said that the Nazgul got only information about the Shire from the Southerner they captured. Still, once the Witch King realized the Shire's location and proximity to Bree (and thus, Bree's importance) he may have demanded information regarding Saruman's spies in Bree. This would be my guess concerning how the Nazgul came to learn about Ferny, but certainly there are other workable scenarios.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Note here: Strider did say about Ferny: “Queer folk call at his house” I wonder did he mean the nazgul or the Southerner/other ruffians?

The wording here leads me to believe that this has been going on for a while, since long before the time we are discussing. This fits with Ferny's having been a spy of Saruman and with the Rangers having been aware of Saruman's spies for a good while prior to Frodo's flight.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Alcuin, I don't believe there was more than one nazgul in Bree at this point (H). I think the others (FI) were outside with the horses. Nazgul H had to go outside to send the messenger, and do so fast. So he left right after Merry swooned.

I think it were the Isengarder and Ferny who were lifting Merry when Nob came. I don't see the nazgul doing the dirty job himself when he was in a hurry and there were two mortal ruffians to order about. It is just second nature for a being used to command others. The ruffians got the order to pick Merry, while the nazgul was gone, but got scared by Nob and dropped him. Unlike the nazgul, Ferny couldn't afford to be accused of murder: he hoped to continue living in Bree after this night's work.

So where were Ferny and the Isengarder exactly when Merry swooned? At Ferny's place? Did the Nazgul stop by to see them on his way outside to send the messenger and commanded them to go back and clean up the mess he left in the road?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

So where were Ferny and the Isengarder exactly when Merry swooned? At Ferny's place? Did the Nazgul stop by to see them on his way outside to send the messenger and commanded them to go back and clean up the mess he left in the road?

I think Ferny and the Isengarder returning from the Pony just reached the hedge of Ferny's house when the nazgul who was following them finally caught up with the pair. They stopped by the hedge.

Merry: Anyway, I went, and suddenly I heard voices by the hedge. One was muttering; and the other was whispering, or hissing. I couldn't hear a word that was said. I did not creep any closer, because I began to tremble all over. Then I felt terrified, and I turned back, and was just going to bolt home, when something came behind me and I... I fell over.'

We are not told that the interlocutors stood on the opposite sides of the hedge. I believe all three were still on the road. Merry was unable to see them, he was unable to count them, he only heard two voices: the Isengarder's and the nazgul's.

The nazgul became aware of Merry and sent him in a swoon with Black Breath spell. Merry fell.

The Isengarder continued his report, the nazgul became excited and went away in a hurry to find his buddies camping outside the South Gate. Before leaving, he gave the ruffians an order re: Merry. Maybe he told them to kill Merry, maybe he told them to bring him inside the house, but likely he said something ambiguous like "clean up the mess and wait for me". At the moment Merry interested him not at all.

With the nazgul away, Ferny and Isengarder probably argued what to do with Merry. Ferny's reputation was bad, so for him it was dangerous to kill a hobbit right on his own doorstep. It was dangerous also to keep Merry prisoner in his house, for the first house to be searched likely would be his. The Isengarder may have been of the opposite opinion - he was a stranger in Bree. At this time they likely examined the hobbit and found he was one from the Shire group. Anyway, all this took some time, so when they finally decided to carry Merry somewhere, Nob was already there. The ruffians bolted.

[Coffeehouse]

So what new knowledge has this very detailed discussion of place and time given us? (I would have contributed more were it not for my tight weekend=/)

You're ping-theory about the ring and the Nazgûl was very interesting to read Alcuin. Good job

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

So what new knowledge has this very detailed discussion of place and time given us?

That’s a very good question, and I’ll answer it first. I have a detailed response to Gordis already written.

I learned these things:

1. The Nazgûl dropped Merry because keeping him meant that Nob would raise an alarm and rouse the town of Bree. In the confusion, the Ringbearer might escape yet again. To me, that’s a big deal, because it was a loose end I could not place: this is why I began the thread.
   
2. Frodo twice felt that there was another will trying to induce him to put on the Ring. That will almost certainly came from the Nazgûl standing across the Road from the Inn, the one whom Merry followed back to Ferny’s house. I have never seen that suggested anywhere else: not on a board, not in a book. I think that’s a big deal.
   
3. The Dread Pirate Roberts has discovered that Tolkien used British Summer Time (daylight savings time) for his times the following morning. As far as I know, that has never before been discovered. I think he is correct, and I think Gordis (who can speak for herself on this) thinks so, too. For scholars, that’s actually a very big deal.
   
4. CAB and Olmer argued that Bree is too big in the map Karen Fonstad made. Fonstad (rest her soul) did great work on Tolkien’s maps, but Gordis located what appears to be the working sketch, and it suggests that it was no farther to the West gate than to the South gate (and Ferny’s house). Those distances make all the difference in sketching out the time, and I think I now know that Fonstad’s map is inaccurate.
5. I also learned (thanks to Olmer) there is almost certainly a side door to the Prancing Pony, and without mentioning that there was a side door, Tolkien used it in the published text.

In addition, there are three other things that have emerged:

1. I knew but am reminded that there were three Nazgûl at Bree when the evening began, and that the third, the messenger sent to the Witch-king at Andrath, was waylaid sometime in the night by the Dúnedain, who were unquestionably assigned the difficult and dangerous task of guarding the Greenway by Aragorn. This means that the Dúnedain of the North were still a force to be reckoned with in their own territory; that despite their confrontation with all the Nazgûl at Sarn Ford several days before, they had not lost heart; that Aragorn was very much in charge of the Rangers (as befits a king or chieftain); and that he was an experienced commander in his own right, having set or ordered an ambuscade in just the right place to upset the plans of his enemies.
   
2. I always believed the Nazgûl had beaten the hobbits to Bree. That was my bias, but “The Hunt for the Ring” MSS confirms it. I don’t think everyone knew that going into the conversation.
   
3. Finally, Attalus and The Dread Pirate Roberts are interested in the events that follow into the morning: when the Nazgûl actually attacked, and then the departure of Strider and the hobbits from Bree. I hope they will follow up on these things.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Olmer has proved that Merry was standing by the side entrance (he had to go round the corner to follow the nazgul). So Merry couldn't see Ferny and Isengarder exiting.

“Proved” is such a strong word; “demonstrated”, certainly. I agree: I certainly think he is correct. And that probably means Tolkien sketched a floorplan for the Prancing Pony, likely very similar to the one that Fonstad shows on her page of maps for Bree.

Originally Posted by Gordis

What do you think is wrong in my timeline for 9.45-10.00 that I have posted before, Alcuin?

I don’t see anything wrong with it. It fits into the current rough time-line like a hand in a custom glove.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Alcuin, I don't believe there was more than one nazgul in Bree at this point (H). I think the others (FI) were outside with the horses. Nazgul H had to go outside to send the messenger, and do so fast. So he left right after Merry swooned.

I would agree with you except for the clear statement of the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS. But whether there were two or three in town or out doesn’t matter, I think: the messenger left immediately, that much is clear, leaving two Nazgûl in Bree to seize Merry, and they failed to do that. That’s the text we have to use for the off-stage movements and actions of the Nazgûl.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think it were the Isengarder and Ferny who were lifting Merry when Nob came. I don't see the nazgul doing the dirty job himself when he was in a hurry and there were two mortal ruffians to order about. It is just second nature for a being used to command others. The ruffians got the order to pick Merry, while the nazgul was gone, but got scared by Nob and dropped him. Unlike the nazgul, Ferny couldn't afford to be accused of murder: he hoped to continue living in Bree after this night's work.

I don’t have a problem with that. I agree that the two Nazgûl probably saw it beneath them to haul bodies if there were others around whom they could command to do their bidding. It isn’t what the text says in “The Hunt for the Ring” MSS. Whatever we do has to match the published texts, The Fellowship of the Ring and as much of “The Hunt for the Ring” MSS as we can discern; otherwise, this is just an exercise in fanfic.

It isn’t important until we get to the raid on the Inn. That, I believe, cannot be assigned to “servants of the Ringwraiths,” as some have done. It appears to me clearly contrary both to the published text and to the author’s intentions.

But as for whether it was the Nazgûl lifting Merry, or one Nazgûl and Ferny (or the Isengarder), or Ferny and the Isengarder under the direction of the two remaining Nazgûl as “The Hunt for the Ring” MSS might be interpreted (with a stretch), I don’t care. Two Nazgûl were responsible for the decision to take him, and together they were responsible for the decision to leave him.

Originally Posted by Gordis

nazgul ... made Harry open the West gate for them to bring the horses inside. While the Inn was under attack, the Gate likely stood open.

The Nazgûl almost certainly kept their horses near the South Gate, near Ferny’s house. It was less likely anyone would see the horses or the Nazgûl, and it was much closer to the place their spies were located. The Dwarves in the Inn were headed west, and the Greenway was at the West gate: the South-gate was likely to have less traffic on it that night. Moreover, the Ringbearer was headed east, to Rivendell. There is no reason for the Ringwraiths to keep their horses at the West Gate. Besides, Ferny’s house was the last next to the gate, which implies that Ferny had some regular means to pass in and out quietly.

Whether the West gate stood open or not during the attack on the Inn, I don’t know, but I wouldn’t doubt it.

Originally Posted by Gordis

We are not told that the interlocutors stood on the opposite sides of the hedge.

Fair enough. Merry told his friends that he “heard voices by the hedge”. I’m ok with that either way, but I suppose it makes sense that they were standing in the Road beside the hedge. On the other hand, if he sneaked up on Ferny or the Isengarder talking to a Nazgûl, then it also makes sense that the Black Breath came from a second Nazgûl who caught him eavesdropping. It makes no difference in the rough time-line.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Gordis, that is an awesome find.

Great work by everyone here.

Something else I've learned in this thread is that it IS possible to have an in-depth collaborative Tolkien research project on a board without anyone getting self-righteous and smarmy. Entmoot is the only board I've ever seen this measure of success and cooperation on. This has already become my primary Tolkien board; I'm considering making it my only Tolkien board primarily because of the cooperative attitude of the people here.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Gordis, that is an awesome find.

Great work by everyone here.

Something else I've learned in this thread is that it IS possible to have an in-depth collaborative Tolkien research project on a board without anyone getting self-righteous and smarmy. Entmoot is the only board I've ever seen this measure of success and cooperation on. This has already become my primary Tolkien board; I'm considering making it my only Tolkien board primarily because of the cooperative attitude of the people here.

Yeah, that is a neat find. I never knew the British used double summer time in that period!

The discussions about the Tolkien world here are definitely very civil and very construcive at least from my point of view. I don't know of any other Tolkien board (this is the only internet board I have used, use and will ever use! and that says something about Entmoot worthiness It's very diverse) but surely nothing beats this!

I think what's pretty clear by the numerous interesting facts that have been established on this thread, is that the depth of Tolkien's Middle Earth enthusiasm and genious simply knows no limits. Just when you think there's a bottom there's yet more to discover!