Sauron's trips to Sammath Naur

[Gordis]

Sam and Frodo saw Sauron’s road from Barad-dûr to Sammath Naur

Out from the Dark Tower’s huge western gate it came over a deep abyss by a vast bridge of iron, and then passing into the plain it ran for a league between two smoking chasms, and so reached a long sloping causeway that led up on to the Mountain’s eastern side. Thence, turning and encircling all its wide girth from south to north, it climbed at last, high in the upper cone, but still far from the reeking summit, to a dark entrance that gazed back east straight to the Window of the Eye in Sauron’s shadow-mantled fortress. Often blocked or destroyed by the tumults of the Mountain’s furnaces, always that road was repaired and cleaned again by the labours of countless orcs.

It seems that Sauron used this road regularly, so he had some business at Sammath Naur. What was he doing there? Was he obliged to go there in person to cause darkness that covered the lands to the West? Was he obliged to go there to make this strong eruption on March 9, the signal for the war, which had been answered by blue lightnings from the Morgul Tower?

If it was the case, then Shagrat's words: "The Eye is busy elsewhere" may have simply meant that Sauron (referred to as "the Eye" by the Orcs) was away from Barad Dur.

So let us see. There is about 50 miles between Barad-Dur and Orodruin: at least half a day hard riding. I don't think Sauron used a Fell Beast, because why then did he need a road maintained in order?

So, Darkness started to pour out of Mordor on March 9. Sauron was probably at Sammath Naur, and also made a signal for Morgul host to leave (It seems he loved dramatic effects: why couldn't he simply set the hour in advance or sent a nazgul?).
Sauron must have stayed there for several days: till March 13. Proof? The nazgul normally were able to send instant messages to Sauron. But they were unable to do so for a good while, most likely due to Sauron's absence.

`No, I don't know,' said Gorbag's voice. `The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to. ...'

'Bad business,' said Gorbag. `See here – our Silent Watchers were uneasy more than two days ago, that I know. But my patrol wasn't ordered out for another day, nor any message sent to Lugbúrz either: owing to the Great Signal going up, and the High Nazgûl going off to the war, and all that. And then they couldn't get Lugbúrz to pay attention for a good while, I'm told.'
`The Eye was busy elsewhere, I suppose,' said Shagrat. `Big things going on away west, they say.'

So, likely Sauron was away from Barad Dur and from his Palantir on March 9-13, thus overlooking Frodo's passage of the Crossroads (March 9), the Muster of Rohan (10), the Ride of the Rohirrim before they entered the Druedain forest (13), Aragorn's ride from Erech with the Army of the Dead (9-13) and the capture of the Fleet at Pelargir (13).

Likely, when he returned to Barad-Dur, he rushed to his Palantir and kept all his attention on Minas Tirith and Denethor and on the Pelennor, disregarding small matters, like a capture of a spy at Ungol. But his being away from Mt. Doom proved perilous, as his Darkness failed on the morning of the Pelennor Battle (March 15). I think, poor Sau hurried immediately to Orodruin again, to make new portion of smoke, and thus missed the approach of Aragorn up Anduin.

Sauron simply had too much on his hands, poor megalomaniac, never trusting his underlings enough...

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Another great thread from Gordis.

Originally Posted by Gordis

It seems that Sauron used this road regularly, so he had some business at Sammath Naur. What was he doing there? Was he obliged to go there in person to cause darkness that covered the lands to the West? Was he obliged to go there to make this strong eruption on March 9, the signal for the war, which had been answered by blue lightnings from the Morgul Tower?

If it was the case, then Shagrat's words: "The Eye is busy elsewhere" may have simply meant that Sauron (referred to as "the Eye" by the Orcs) was away from Barad Dur.

That makes sense to me. That he would have to go himself to Mt Doom to cause the darkness. His power wasn't fully restored right? So he probably had to do a lot of things 'by hand' so to speak.

So, Darkness started to pour out of Mordor on March 9. Sauron was probably at Sammath Naur, and also made a signal for Morgul host to leave (It seems he loved dramatic effects: why couldn't he simply set the hour in advance or sent a nazgul?).

I think the eruption and the blue lighning was a fear tactic. The old 'break a man's courage and you break the man' type of thing. He so loved that.

Sauron must have stayed there for several days: till March 13. Proof? The nazgul normally were able to send instant messages to Sauron. But they were unable to do so for a good while, most likely due to Sauron's absence.

So, likely Sauron was away from Barad Dur and from his Palantir on March 9-13, thus overlooking Frodo's passage of the Crossroads (March 9), the Muster of Rohan (10), the Ride of the Rohirrim before they entered the Druedain forest (13), Aragorn's ride from Erech with the Army of the Dead (9-13) and the capture of the Fleet at Pelargir (13).

This time line makes sense to my I guess.

Likely, when he returned to Barad-Dur, he rushed to his Palantir and kept all his attention on Minas Tirith and Denethor and on the Pelennor, disregarding small matters, like a capture of a spy at Ungol. But his being away from Mt. Doom proved perilous, as his Darkness failed on the morning of the Pelennor Battle (March 15). I think, poor Sau hurried immediately to Orodruin again, to make new portion of smoke, and thus missed the approach of Aragorn up Anduin.

The one thing that has always bothered me is: Sauron knew the ring was once in the hands of a hobbit and he had to have gotten some news that the prisoner at Ungol was in fact a hobbit. Now wouldn't Sauron, being paranoid and all, think that there was a chance the Ring was in Mordor? Maybe send out a search party for the escaped prisoner? Could he have simply thought the Men of Gondor would using the hobbits like they had once been used for, to spy? The Mouth refers to him(Frodo) later as a spy, but did Sauron really think that? I mean come on. Hobbit had the Ring, hobbit captured at Ungol, hobbit escapes. 1+1+1+paranoid lord= what? I don't know. Maybe I missed something?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Faramir

The one thing that has always bothered me is: Sauron knew the ring was once in the hands of a hobbit and he had to have gotten some news that the prisoner at Ungol was in fact a hobbit. Now wouldn't Sauron, being paranoid and all, think that there was a chance the Ring was in Mordor? Maybe send out a search party for the escaped prisoner? Could he have simply thought the Men of Gondor would using the hobbits like they had once been used for, to spy? The Mouth refers to him(Frodo) later as a spy, but did Sauron really think that? I mean come on. Hobbit had the Ring, hobbit captured at Ungol, hobbit escapes. 1+1+1+paranoid lord= what? I don't know. Maybe I missed something?

Sauron didn't get the news that the prisoner WAS A HOBBIT until it was too late.

It seems, that until Frodo was captured, both the nazgul and Sauron were troubled only about some spies, not hobbits:

But there's no doubt about it, they're troubled about something. The Nazgûl down below are, by your account; and Lugbúrz is too. Something nearly slipped.'.

The nazgul finally managed to get a message through to Sauron - on the 13 of March. (Curious that the nazgul never thought of sending one of them to find Sauron at Orodruin. Probably no one wanted to come close to the Fiery Mountain ).

Sauron, upon receiving the news, immediately sent a message to Cirith Ungol. (Interesting -how? Telegraph, perhaps ). This message is given:

`About an hour ago, just before you saw us, a message came: Nazgûl uneasy. Spies feared on Stairs. Double vigilance. Patrol to head of Stairs. I came at once.'

So, initially, the only thing Sauron knew was that some "spies" slipped past Minas Morgul and went up the secret stairs to Ungol. It seems, by the way, that the Witch-King didn't inform Sauron that he sort of felt the presence of the Ring in his valley. Interesting, eh?

Neither did the nazgul send anyone in pursuit until it was almost too late. I guess, the nazgul gave any intruders, except the short-legged exhausted hobbits , time enough to pass Cirith Ungol safely, before they raised an alarm. The hobbits were too slow on the stairs, slower then the nazgul reckoned them to be. That was a slight miscalculation, which almost proved fatal.

But it is not as simple as that, because Sauron also sent Shagrat additional orders:

Any trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower. Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring, or trinket is to be sent to Lugbúrz at once, and to Lugbúrz only. And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself.

Doesn't it sound like Sauron has made some connection with the Ring? A Ring is mentioned; the possibility of Sauron coming to Ungol in person is also quite revealing. But most of all I love this "to Lugburz only". It meant, in other words, "NOT to Minas Morgul" (There were two companies patrolling the stairs: one from Ungol, and one from Morgul.) It seems Sauron stopped trusting his nazgul, and got some inkling at last that they were fooling him all along.

But why did he make such a connection? I don't know.

Perhaps he suspected any anomaly, like an unheard-of spy on the Stairs to be connected with the Ring-business?

Or he suspected only those events which caused his nazgul to act strange to be connected with the Ring?

As for the nazgul, I think their keeping quiet about the passage of the spies by their fortress for several days was a last straw that finally broke Sauron's trust. He started to sum up things: their long search for the Ring in the Vales, their failure in the Shire, and at the Weathertop, and at the Ford, their inability to locate hobbits with the Ring later...

Then, it seems, after capturing Frodo, the orcs were too busy fighting over his mithril shirt to send a messenger to Barad-Dur.

And when some new lads come, I’ll deal with you: I’ll send you to Shelob.’
`They won’t come, not before you’re dead anyway,’ answered Snaga surlily. ‘I’ve told you twice that Gorbag’s swine got to the gate first, and none of ours got out. Lagduf and Muzgash ran through, but they were shot. I saw it from a window, I tell you. And they were the last.’
‘Then you must go. ...You must go, or I’ll eat you. News must get through to Lugbúrz, or we’ll both be for the Black Pits. Yes, you too. You won’t escape by skulking here.’

So untill the morning of 15, Sauron didn't learn that A HOBBIT was captured on the 13!

[Landroval]

Now wouldn't Sauron, being paranoid and all, think that there was a chance the Ring was in Mordor?

Apparently not; according to the Council of Elrond:

Let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.
...
Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.
...
This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?

It seems Sauron stopped trusting his nazgul, and got some inkling at last that they were fooling him all along.

I disagree:

Originally Posted by Letter #246

I do not think [the nazguls] could have attacked [Frodo] with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.

[Gordis]

Oh, yes, I know this quote. It describes the nazgul actions if they faced Frodo wielding the Ring. Sauron had primary control of their wills, while Frodo would only have some secondary control.

And yes, Sauron was able to control the nazgul when he used their Rings to control them. But he couldn't do that all the time.

His only problem was that he couldn't do everything at once: look in the Palantir, control Denethor, control orcs, control Orodruin eruptions, control the nazgul, plan the battles, run Mordor etc. etc.

He was alone to do all that, so once he was set on one thing, he had to let slip the others. And the nazgul must have had a pretty good idea when trey were being watched and when not.

A quote is a good thing, but look at the facts. Why were the orcs ordered to report to Barad-Dur ONLY, and not to Minas Morgul?

[Landroval]

His only problem was that he couldn't do everything at once: look in the Palantir, control Denethor

Denethor was deceived, maybe even corrupted to some degree, but he never fell to Sauron's control. He was too strong for that.

A quote is a good thing, but look at the facts. Why were the orcs ordered to report to Barad-Dur ONLY, and not to Minas Morgul?

Facts? I can't count all the possible explanations. We are talking about the most important item in all Middle-Earth; was there anyone else in Sauron's service who he thought was better prepared to handle a 'ring-in-Mordor' situation than he himself? And what mess would happen if both Sauron and a nazgul would initiate various actions in order to manage the situation? We see how easily orcs slay each other. And the less orcs are involved in the communication process, the better, seeing how treacherous or untrustworthy they are.

[Butterbeer]

Gor:

... His only problem was that he couldn't do everything at once: look in the Palantir, control Denethor, control orcs, control Orodruin eruptions, control the nazgul, plan the battles, run Mordor etc. etc.

He was alone to do all that, so once he was set on one thing, he had to let slip the others...

If only he'd had a wife!

*cough* Galadriel *cough*

[Scrooge]

I do believe there is a reason Sauron could have expected that a Ring-bearer might have been creeping across Cirith Ungol into Mordor that had nothing to do with destroying the Ring: assassination. He assumed that no one would desire to destroy it. He assumed one of the great would acquire it and seek to subjugate the world. He had, in Mordor, a pre-fabbed army trained and equipped for the destruction of Minas Tirith. Gandalf (for example) could plan to sneak into Mordor (even without the Ring, I feel he would have been willing to face Shelob), sneak into Barad-Dur, *splortch* Sauron, and wrest control of the troops? I believe he would have failed, but it seems reasonable to think Sauron could have planned for that as a contingency. Throughout the tale we are told he believes one of the great will acquire the ring and seek to use it, and that does not necessarily mean using it in a pitched battle.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Could someone have mastered The One Ring and used it to overthrow Sauron or not? Seems to me, if not, then he had nothing to fear. Yet, he was clearly afraid that someone would do exactly that. Why? I've never heard an explanation that satisfies me on this point.

[Gordis]

DPR, it is all in the letter 246.
One "of equal stature", = Gandalf could have mastered the Ring.
Tolkien is uncertain about Elrond and Galadriel.
Men - no.
(I am quoting from memory)

[Alcuin]

From the end of Letter 246:

…only Gandalf [with the Ring] might be expected to master [Sauron] – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order [i.e., a Maia], an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. … One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf … was placed in [in confrontation alone and unaided with Sauron]. It would be a delicate balance. On one side was the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession… If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him forever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. …

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. …

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

So why did he care when he thought Aragorn had it? Or did he think Gandalf had it and Aragorn was simply his puppet to be placed on Gondor's throne? I've read the letter, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense in light of Sauron's published behavior. It doesn't feel right to me. If The Ring in the hands of anyone would have been easily returned to Sauron when they met face to face, why would Sauron care who had it or what he was doing with it?

Say Aragorn had it and learned to wield it. He becomes a great despot and takes over the world. Then he meets Sauron:

Sauron: Give me the ring, boy.
Aragorn: Ok. Here.
Sauron: Bwahahahaha! My work here is done.



What am I missing here?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

So why did he care when he thought Aragorn had it? Or did he think Gandalf had it and Aragorn was simply his puppet to be placed on Gondor's throne? I've read the letter, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense in light of Sauron's published behavior. It doesn't feel right to me. If The Ring in the hands of anyone would have been easily returned to Sauron when they met face to face, why would Sauron care who had it or what he was doing with it?

Say Aragorn had it and learned to wield it. He becomes a great despot and takes over the world. Then he meets Sauron:

Sauron: Give me the ring, boy.
Aragorn: Ok. Here.
Sauron: Bwahahahaha! My work here is done.



What am I missing here?

I guess it stands only in one-to one confrontation. But if Aragorn brings a huge army... After all Sauron had been once vanquished by Elendil and Gil-Galad

[CAB]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

So why did he care when he thought Aragorn had it? Or did he think Gandalf had it and Aragorn was simply his puppet to be placed on Gondor's throne? I've read the letter, I just don't think it makes a lot of sense in light of Sauron's published behavior. It doesn't feel right to me. If The Ring in the hands of anyone would have been easily returned to Sauron when they met face to face, why would Sauron care who had it or what he was doing with it?

Say Aragorn had it and learned to wield it. He becomes a great despot and takes over the world. Then he meets Sauron:

Sauron: Give me the ring, boy.
Aragorn: Ok. Here.
Sauron: Bwahahahaha! My work here is done.



What am I missing here?

Just because Tolkien knew that Sauron couldn't lose doesn't mean that Sauron himself knew.