How did Denethor know about Aragorn?

[The Gaffer]

In ROTK Denethor refers to Gandalf using him, and Gondor, as a shield against Mordor whilst with the other hand bringing up a "ranger to supplant me".

How did he know this?

We know from ROTK that Denethor could only see in the Palantir what Sauron permitted him to see.

Did, then, Sauron reveal this to Denethor only after Aragorn had revealed himself to Sauron? Or was there some other means by which he knew?

[Valandil]

I guess Denethor pieced it together.

I wonder if the statement about Sauron only allowing Denethor to see what he wanted him to see should have been further qualified in some way? Like perhaps, that pertained to the devices of Sauron that Denethor might try to examine. For instance, if Denethor was looking toward Mordor, Sauron might just "slightly divert" his gaze, to show him what he wanted him to see. But maybe it would have been harder for Sauron to completely control what he saw - especially if he was looking in a totally different direction??? (all conjecture on my part - but do you think maybe plausible?)

Even then, I doubt he would have been able to closely watch Aragorn through the Palantir. It would be like constantly trying to find a needle in a haystack. It would be one thing if Aragorn was constantly out in the open, leading large armies of men into battle - that would be pretty noticeable. But the lifestyle of a solitary Ranger would be harder to seek out, perhaps.

Here's a theory: Denethor begins to suspect something of Aragorn's true heritage while Aragorn serves his father Ecthelion in the guise of Thorongil. Once he becomes Steward and begins using the Stone, haunted by those memories and what they might one day reveal, he searches. And - if he doesn't see a whole lot of Aragorn, then by frequent observation is at least able to discover the remnants of the Northern Dunedain. He sees also that Mithrandir goes all about Eriador. He puts it all together and comes up with his theory.

It's also possible that the House of Stewards knew (or guessed?) somewhat of the Rangers of the North - even if they kept that knowledge to themselves. (In fact, I have some fanfic outlined ... but I'll save that for another day )

[The Gaffer]

Definitely plausible. Indeed, it would seem unlikely that the Stewards knew nothing of the Northern line, given that (Arvedui?) they had tried to claim the throne in the past and been knocked back, and that there was documentary evidence sitting in Minas Tirith.

Clearly, the Stewards were none too keen to reinstate the monarchy given that they could surely have found the surviving heir had they wanted to.

However, in Denethor's questioning of Pippin, and Gandalf's debrief, we get a pretty explicit indication that Denethor didn't at that time know of Aragorn's particular existence. He might suspect it (he wonders why Boromir did not lead the company), but doesn't know it.

Sauron also did not know of Aragorn's existence and lineage prior to Aragorn revealing himself (oo-er). This is pretty clearly stated in TTT, IIRC. Did Sauron then tell Denethor specifically about "this ranger of the North" who would supplant him?

I wonder if this is what unhinged his mind (a lose-lose situation)?

Not sure if Denethor ever made the connection to Thorongil however.

[durinsbane2244]

i'd be willing to bet that after aragorn revealed himself to sauron, sauron let denethor see it so that he wouldn't trust ol' mithrandir...

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

However, in Denethor's questioning of Pippin, and Gandalf's debrief, we get a pretty explicit indication that Denethor didn't at that time know of Aragorn's particular existence. He might suspect it (he wonders why Boromir did not lead the company), but doesn't know it.

Denethor questioned Pippin before Faramir returned from Ithilien. I have no doubt Faramir told his father what Frodo and Sam had told him about Aragorn, the wannabe King, who led the Fellowship after Rauros. He told about Boromir and the Ring as well.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Denethor would have some information over the years about what was going on in the north among the Dunedain there.
He met Aragorn (AKA Thorongil) when Thorongil was performing errantry in Gondor under Ecthelion II, D's father, and may have become suspicious of his identity and lineage at that early time. It is sugested in Appedix A that D was jealous of Thorongil (A) even at that time.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

In ROTK Denethor refers to Gandalf using him, and Gondor, as a shield against Mordor whilst with the other hand bringing up a "ranger to supplant me".

How did he know this?

We know from ROTK that Denethor could only see in the Palantir what Sauron permitted him to see.

IMO, all of the above replies, plus the Stewards had learned how to use the "P" and could see glimses of the truth. I don't believe they only saw what "S" wanted them to see.

[CAB]

I would agree with Spock that all the above posts help explain Denethor’s knowledge.

Also I think he and Valandil are right that Sauron couldn’t choose everything Denethor would see through the Palantir. In addition to the problem of the direction in which Denethor looked, there is the fact that Sauron couldn’t constantly monitor the Stone (this is stated in The Palantiri in Unfinished Tales). So Denethor should have had opportunities to use the Palantir without Sauron’s involvment.

What is new to me is the idea that Sauron showed Aragorn to Denethor. This makes sense. Sauron’s primary purpose for the Palantir with Denethor wasn’t to keep information from him, but was rather to cause him to lose hope. The one thing that Sauron probably understood best about Denethor was his desire to maintain his power. Showing Aragorn with his banner and sword, essentially claiming the Kingship, would introduce to Denethor the thought of the lose-lose situation that The Gaffer mentioned. Sauron would basically be using the Stone on Denethor the same way as he always had. Very nice suggestion Gaffer.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by CAB

:
:
What is new to me is the idea that Sauron showed Aragorn to Denethor. This makes sense. Sauron’s primary purpose for the Palantir with Denethor wasn’t to keep information from him, but was rather to cause him to lose hope. The one thing that Sauron probably understood best about Denethor was his desire to maintain his power. Showing Aragorn with his banner and sword, essentially claiming the Kingship, would introduce to Denethor the thought of the lose-lose situation that The Gaffer mentioned. Sauron would basically be using the Stone on Denethor the same way as he always had. Very nice suggestion Gaffer.

Yes - a VERY good & interesting theory, Gaffer. One I doubt I would have ever come up with.

[The Gaffer]

Thanks.

I'd forgotten that Denethor had spoken to Faramir, to whom Frodo had talked about Aragorn and his lineage.

Two things then: Frodo had also told him about Gandalf's death, yet Denethor did not seem surprised. Gandalf did not have the Ranger upstart with him, yet Denethor somehow knew that he was being brought along somehow by Gandalf.

If we assume that Denethor could use the Palantir to look elsewhere, what exactly DID he know? He didn't seem aware of Rohan's imminent arrival, nor of the armies of the Ents raging about the place. Given that, could he be expected to know about Aragorn via the Palantir?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

1.We know from ROTK that Denethor could only see in the Palantir what Sauron permitted him to see.
2.Given that, could he be expected to know about Aragorn via the Palantir?

1.Palantirs don't lie. So you can see only the real situations of what you want to seein any place, not just some selected scenes.
2.Certainly. I'll give an exerpt from another thread, where we at length discussed Denethor's actions and motives. I would suggest to read Gordis postings - some interesting observations (as usual )
The Pire of Denethor

This is mine.

Of course, spending every evening gaizing into Palantir, Denethor knew who is arriving on the ships of Umbar. After all on these ships was the best source of communication - Orthanc’s palantir. Since Aragorn was surprisingly well updated about the current state of Minas Tirith , I think that he looked into it not once. The last time it was when “the fleet set forth� up Anduin, and when he urgently said, that “to the Harlond we must come tomorrow or fail utterly.�
So, Denethor knew that Aragorn’s coming was invetable and such opposition, as he, wouldn’t be spared by the new ruler. Most probably he and others, who will support him, would be quietly eliminated, or sent as far away from the capital, as it possible, “rehabilitating the lost territory� (Letter #244)on the borders of ever hostile Harad in the “main eastward outposts� of the Ithilien, as it happened even with so loyal Faramir. Shortly, to stay in the places with a highest probability to get killed.

As about suspecting who Aragorn really is, we also talk in this thread, and seems that such picture came out:
Possible, that Thorongil in some subtle way revealed his ancestry to Ecthelion, but Ecthelion in the same subtle way let him know that you need to have more substantial proves for claiming the throne of Gondor ,and not just a hearsay and some dubious shards of so called legendary sword.
I think, that Denethor also have been told by his father who Aragorn really is . By that time Aragorn's popularity was very highone notch lower than Ectelion and he was expected by men to return to Minas-Tirith, where great honour awaited him, but since Ecthelion has been already quite old, and the ruling expected to be continued by his very brave and valiant son, Aragorn did not risk to proclame openly, causing of uprising, instead he decided to return back North whence he came from, promising upon his departure: "I come again to Gondor" ("And this time I'll be prepared!")
"To all men it seemed a loss, unless it were to Denethor" So , Denethor knew, that he will be the last steward of Gondor. It was just the matter of time.

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Did, then, Sauron reveal this to Denethor only after Aragorn had revealed himself to Sauron?

Yep. That's my bet.

[Alcuin]

We are all forgetting that Pippin told Beregond that Aragorn was the only one of the Company who really knew Gandalf. When Beregond asked for more information, Pippin played it as, “He was a man who went about with us.” The next day, Denethor teased Pippin about the short rations in the City, and Pippin realized Beregond had reported everything he had said in their conversation. And after Denethor questioned Pippin at their first meeting, Gandalf pointed out that Pippin was unable to hide that someone with a famous sword was coming, and that Boromir was not the leader of the Company after Moria.

Denethor and Aragorn had known one another as young men when Aragorn served his father, Ecthelion II, under the name Thorongil. Appendix A suggests that Denethor had been able even then to determine who Aragorn was, and that he was jealous. (After all, Denethor could never be king himself, “just” steward.)

Denethor knew who was in Rohan by name and title by the time Pippin showed up to serve the next morning, when he teased him about the rations.

Sauron’s must be careful to hide from Denethor what he knows about Aragorn. For one thing, Sauron did not know his name. (Aragorn did not “speak” to him: he threatened him with Narsil-Andúril and then wrenched the palantÃ*r to his own use.) For another two, the Sword-that-was-Broken was in the dream-rhyme, and Sauron would want to conceal anything that might give Denethor hope; and the coming of the Heir of Isildur would have given Denethor hope were he not consumed with jealousy. I think Sauron showed him the fleet and the armies marshaled against Gondor, and Denethor feared that Sauron had read from his mind what he knew about Frodo’s quest and used it to regain the One Ring.

Since Sauron believed either Aragorn or Gandalf had the Ring, he knew that Denethor did not. So he must have been bluffing Denethor in order to weaken his will to fight before Aragorn could arrive.

Think about it: After their confrontation, Sauron knew Aragorn was in the Hornburg. He had to strike before the Heir of Isildur could reach Minas Tirith. All the more because he believed Aragorn had the Ruling Ring.

[CAB]

I agree and disagree with you here, Alcuin.

Of course you are right that Denethor was already aware of Aragorn (aka: Thorongil, the leader of Pippin and Boromir's company after Moria, Heir of Isildur). What was interesting about The Gaffer's suggestion wasn't the thought that Denethor may learned about Aragorn from Sauron. Rather, it was the idea that Sauron (who was almost surely unaware of Denethor's knowledge concerning Aragorn) may have intended to use this information to further weaken Denethor, and through him, Gondor.

"... let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts."

As I argued earlier in this thread, the one thing Sauron probably understood best about Denethor was his desire to retain his power. Aragorn's imminent return would not have given Denethor hope, it would have done just the opposite. And, to a degree, Sauron was correct in his thinking regarding Denethor.

"I would have things as they were in all the days of my life," answered Denethor, "and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated."

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Since Sauron believed either Aragorn or Gandalf had the Ring, he knew that Denethor did not. So he must have been bluffing Denethor in order to weaken his will to fight before Aragorn could arrive.

I don't think bluffing was necessary in this case. According to Sauron's way of thinking, Denethor, once made aware of Aragorn, should have lost his willingness to fight. He was in, as The Gaffer said earlier, a lose-lose situation.