What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR

[Jon S.]

That's not at all what was said or meant. Let's move on.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Hey, I winked [ ]. It's all good.

[Jon S.]

Sorry. (I'm "caffienated" now.)

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Hey, you calling me soft?

[Jon S.]

Lol!

[Jon S.]

I do wish there were a bit more traffic on this site.

I guess there's only so much we can say about anything!

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

I do wish there were a bit more traffic on this site.

I guess there's only so much we can say about anything!

And it's no fun to talk when only the righteous will be saved.

[Earniel]

The side-discussion about Elven Ears has been moved here.

[Finarfin-1]

Just wanted to say,
As someone who read all the core books and several of the "secondary" books I just wanted to say that while the movies have some pretty significant flaws, abbreviate several important parts of the story to the point of insult (the removal of Saruman attacking the Shire bugging me the most), and the annoying nature of some of Arwen and Aragorn's "Will I, Won't I" meandering moments, I think that overall they're very entertaining and well done in many ways.

[Coffeehouse]

I think though it would have been fitting to include the meeting with Gildor and the High Elves, together with the journey they make towards Buckland, hitting upon Farmer Maggot's house (an not being chased away! like in the movies), and with the nightly ride to the Brandywine river and the crossing they make in the mist of the night. That would have been pretty cool since that part of the journey is oddly enough my favorite part

One thing PJ did get right though, which he has been criticized for, but a thing I found ironically enough is quite true to the character, is that of Pippin.
F.ex. this part from when Frodo, Sam and Pippin have just woken up in the leafy, secure place under the trees where they met Gildor and the High Elves the night before. And PJ has been criticized for portraying Pippin as too much the comic relief, when really that's actually pretty right-on Some of his comments in the book just makes you laugh!
I only have the book in Norwegian here and now so I'll quote it and translate it as well as I can manage

Sam satt på gresset i skogkanten. Pippin sto og studerte himmelen og været. Det var ikke tegn til alvene.
"De har lagt igjen frukt og drikke og brød," sa Pippin. "Kom og spis frokost. Brødet smaker nesten like godt som i går kveld. Jeg hadde ikke tenkt å la det bli igjen noe til deg, men Sam insisterte."
- Sam sat on the grass by the edge of the forest. Pippin was standing, watching the skies and the weather. There was no sign of the elves.
"They have left us fruit and beverage and bread," said Pippin. "Come and eat breakfast. The bread tastes almost as good as it did last night. I hadn't intended to leave anything to you, but Sam insisted."

[...]

"I så fall er jeg sikker på at Gildor ville nektet å si noe om det," sa Frodo skarpt. "La meg nå være litt i fred! Jeg vil ikke svare på en masse spørsmål mens jeg spiser. Jeg må tenke!"
"Du store allverden," sa Pippin. "Til frokost?" Han gikk sin vei mot skogkanten.
- "In that case I am sure Gildor would have refused to speak of it," Frodo uttered sharply. "Let me be at peace! I don't want to answer a bunch of questions while I am eating. I need to think!"
"My word," said Pippin. "During breakfast?" He walked away towards the edge of the forest.

[...]

"Er alt klart til start?" sa han da Pippin kom springende. "Vi må i vei med det samme. Vi har sovet for lenge, og det er langt å gå."
"Du har sovet for lenge, mener du vel," sa Pippin. "Jeg var oppe for lenge siden, og vi venter bare på at du skal bli ferdig med å spise og tenke."
- "Is everything ready?" he [Frodo] said when Pippin came running. "We have to be on our way at once. We've slept for too long, and there's a long walk ahead."
"You have slept too long I think you mean to say, " said Pippin. "I woke up ages ago, and we're just waiting for you to finish eating and thinking."

[Zilbanne]

I like the fact the the movies will bring Tolkien's ideas and stories at least to some extent to those who will never read his books. I did enjoy the movies and accept that there must be many cinematic changes to bring the books to screen. It irks me too as some others have said in this discussion that Faramir's motivations and character was changed so much!

[Kennashi]

I rather liked Faramir's changes...it actually showed for once that no one was immune to the ring, even the so-called "righteous" counterpart of Boromir.

[vgoodgion@hotmail.com]

Originally Posted by Kennashi

I rather liked Faramir's changes...it actually showed for once that no one was immune to the ring, even the so-called "righteous" counterpart of Boromir.

i rather think faramir is a brat in the movies. i like him better in the books

[vgoodgion@hotmail.com]

umm..
fit a great book into three hours
you have a year and 100 mill. get back to me then

[Jon S.]

I LIKE the Faramir of the Book better in some ways but I find the Faramir of the movie far MORE REAL.

[Grey_Wolf]

It might be that the change showed him to more human but it also was a blatant example of the meddling in the story by PJ.

[jammi567]

I much prefer the film Faramir, simply because it didn't make him above coruption and all the impurities in life. I mean, even Aaragorn was tempted for a moment!

[Gordis]

PJ and Philippa obviously thought Tolkien characters to be too "flat" - so they decided to remedy to it, "improving" the story. Now we have Hamlet-like Aragorn constantly undecided "to be or not to be ... King" and a matching Arwen who muses on "to sail or not to sail".

As for Faramir, he came out as a weakling - always so. His final decision to let hobbits go is left absolutely unexplained. It is not the result of the integrity of his character as it should have been, but just another whim. "Well I better take these two to Daddy... Nay, I better let them go... Yea, dad, if you command, I will go get killed - with all my knights." And at the end he smiles at Eowyn shyly and undecidedly like a poor lost puppy he is.

But what happens when PJ portrays a character that is NOT flat in the books - psychologically complex , brilliant characters like Denethor (and Saruman)? Why, he MAKES them flat! Who can be flatter that PJ's Denethor? Is he a man "in whom the blood of the Westernesse runs almost true?" No way. It looks like he was born a base evil madman and was never taught table manners to boot. Strange he has got more or less fine sons...doesn't agree with genetics.

And, could someone, please, explain to me, WHY in Osgiliath movie-Faramir let Frodo and Sam go free after witnessing how Frodo in a trance offered the Ring to a Ringwraith and then nearly killed his companion?
Normally Faramir, witnessing such strange behavior, would have been morally obliged to put Frodo somewhere safe - in a deep dungeon or in a fortified mental hospital. Instead, Faramir suddenly decided to let Frodo go free in the direction of the "Witch-King's lair" - so that he could offer the Ring to the Nazgul unhindered, when next they meet

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But what happens when PJ portrays a character that is NOT flat in the books

I strongly disagree with that interpretation because it rests on the premise that most of Tolkien's characters were not 'flatly' portrayed in the books, while, in fact, they were. But that does not mean that flat characters ruins the books. I'll come back to that point later.

For of all Tolkien's brilliant storywriting he portayed no genious for character-depth. When it came to real-life believable, complex characters the peoples in LOTR fall short a good many times. There is little depth, a tendency of flatness, in Tolkien's characters. In fact I'll go as far as to say that the only character in the LOTR books that showed real depth of character was Frodo, whom ironically is one of the least successful portrayals in the LOTR-movies. Elijah Wood does an okay job, but there could have been other actors to starr in that role with more to contribute.

Whether Tolkien is intentionally shallow with his characters or not is hard to tell, but I believe that such a massive and multilayered story that LOTR is, with many, many characters, would simply become boring and winding to the readers if Tolkien had gone ahead with more colorful, diverse characterizations. The story is meant as a grand story. An epic. It probably wouldn't work.

[Gordis]

You call book-Denethor flat? Saruman? Boromir?