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04-11-2008, 07:58 PM | #1 | |
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Gildor Inglorion
Continuing this from a thread where we got rather off topic...
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian Last edited by Curufin : 04-11-2008 at 08:00 PM. |
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04-11-2008, 08:05 PM | #2 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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There are worse Elves than Gildor, I think. Although his counsel wasn't exactly very helpful at times, the guy meant well.
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04-11-2008, 08:06 PM | #3 |
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See, I was madly in love with him for a long time. I really like the guy. He's just...the epitome of what an Elf should be.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
04-12-2008, 04:26 AM | #4 | ||
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Gildor and his company of HIGH ELVES (who live and have great power in both the Seen and the Unseen Words, who can openly fight nazgul) could have escorted the hobbits to Rivendell safely. It is like a whole company of Glorfindels. Gildor knew it, but still he sent the hobbits on their way alone and returned to his singing under the stars (quite an important business as compared to lowly mortal matters).
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And what would have happened if Glorfindel the Elf shared this attitude? Now compare it with the words of Barliman, the funny, fat, forgetful innkeeper: Quote:
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04-12-2008, 05:01 AM | #5 |
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The question remains if Butterbur's would have still been that helpfull if it had meant going along and protect the Hobbits, instead of just getting them a pack-horse... I'm guessing not.
The Hobbits didn't look that frightened either at the time with the meeting with Gildor, this was early enough in the adventure. At the time the Hobbits didn't need protection yet, and stealth might have gotten them further instead of being escorted by a whole squard of singing Elves.
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04-12-2008, 05:26 AM | #6 | |||
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Getting them a pack horse and especially keeping his mouth shut (the latter must have been hard) was all Barley was realistically capable of. And it might have turned to be quite dangerous - don't forget that the very angry Witch King and 6 nazgul passed through Bree the very next night, abandoning all secrecy, throwing down the gates. If the WK only stopped for a moment to search the Pony, it would have turned quite ill for Barley. Quote:
A whole squard of singing HIGH Elves would have been a perfect protection from the nazgul. And Gildor did send a messenger to Rivendell to warn Elrond, who arrived nine days before the hobbits. Now why couldn't Gildor et al go with them? Quote:
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04-12-2008, 05:52 AM | #7 | ||
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04-12-2008, 08:29 AM | #8 |
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>> The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned in the ways of Hobbits, or of any other creatures on earth.
If nothing else, this expression of isolationism is certainly common in "regular earth," too. Though I do agree with Earniel as well: it is perilous to judge on the basis of snippets of 3rd-hand conversations. This doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try, only that we proceed humbly.
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04-12-2008, 12:26 PM | #9 |
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And yet I can't stand Túrin. More of a Ñoldor person, myself.
But I understand your reasoning! As for Gildor, I see in him the culmination of everything that has befallen the Ñoldor - he's very reluctant to get involved in anything that is going to cause any more grief, and he really just wants to be left alone and allowed to go into the West. But that said, he does have a bit of good and nobility left within him - the reason he even goes so far as to give the Hobbits advice (when he really doesn't want to take them among them).
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04-12-2008, 06:31 PM | #10 |
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FWIW, Gordis's arguments regarding Gildor are beginning to persuade me. Based on what we can know of the situation, what the protaganists actually said, who likely knew what, and how regular folks (yes, I'm projecting here!) would likely act were an analogous situation to arise in our lives, while it was cool that Gildor helped as much as he did, seems to me it was a huge risk bordering on if not equaling recklessness to not have done more under the circumstances.
If it had been me meeting up with the hobbits in the woods, knowing what Gildor knew, I'd like to think I would have asked a few more questions and offered a bit more aid.
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04-12-2008, 06:51 PM | #11 | ||
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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05-15-2008, 02:56 AM | #12 | |
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In the end, I don't think this point has been mentioned in the debate, we should not look at what Gildor and his company of elves thought they could do, or ought to have done, but at what Gandalf intended.
My reasoning why Gildor and the elves were right to give the hobbits shelter, food and some advice and not "transport" the hobbits all the way to Rivendell, was that Gandalf obviously had not intended them to do the latter. If Gildor and the elves were meant to help, the wizard must surely contacted Rivendell, or any wandering elves in the Shire area, to ask of them to help the hobbits. But he didn't He meant to let Frodo & his companions to go it alone to Bree, without being assisted, mile by mile, along the way. Gandalf had a purpose, and I would believe it was a blend of wanting the ring to remain obscure, "unimportant" in a way, along its journey to Rivendell. He also wanted hobbits to take it along as they seemed near-impossible to lure into using the ring actively. Thus safest way of keeping it inactive was with Frodo. Yet Gandalf did not expect Frodo to go it alone. He knew there'd be elves in the area, he knew there'd be Tom Bombadil, he knew there'd be Strider, etc. And he put faith into the hobbits, because he obviously he knew what they were capable of pulling off through the separate journey of Bilbo during the "The Hobbit". In the end therefore, Gildor should not be held to blame for not doing anything more. I think he did just what he needed to. Quote:
What you describe above may be understandable, but it's a very poor showing in qualities. There are no perfect people, but only perfect intentions, and that is something that stands as a general weakness among many of the glorified elves of Noldor. The lack of interest by some elves in the doings of other creatures is perhaps something that cannot be considered evil, or wrong, but it's certainly not good. It's not respectable, and it breeds apathy. The elves have long lives, great love of nature, a good eye for beauty, but sometimes for all the wisdom they seem to possess they also display a troubling lack of insight into other creature's cultures, an ignorant understanding of the complexity of other races. There's nothing wrong about it, but it certainly isn't respectable either. And if someone deserves to be called noble they need to show the willingness and wisdom to go that extra mile even if no one requires them to. For all their lifetime, elves have as much to learn about living by Men, as Men have to learn about elvish deeds. But that's my take on it
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04-12-2008, 10:35 PM | #13 |
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If the third age Noldor viewed Men on par with ants and deer, they had fallen much farther than even I thought.
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04-13-2008, 08:46 AM | #14 | ||||||||||
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Frodo told Gildor they had to get out of the Shire - but would that save them? How could Gildor know that Aragorn was waiting for the hobbits in Bree? I think you all agree that, but for Aragorn, the hobbits would have hardly gotten beyond the Forsaken Inn. I don't believe Gildor didn't have a suspision about the nature of this "burden". He did guess - that's why he didn't ask for more info. Because otherwise, he would have to face it: he was sending the Ruling Ring straight to Sauron's hand, dooming his kingswoman Galadriel (of the house of Finarfin) AND her son-in law Elrond AND her only grandchildren AND the realms of Lorien and Rivendell AND also, (as far as he likely supposed) Cirdan and the Havens - summarily all the Elvish realms in Middle Earth. If the Ring were taken by Nazgul in late September, the Elves of Lorien and Rivendell likely wouldn't even have time to flee to Valinor, except Gildor himself - who was so close to the Havens. Quote:
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Snaga was not at the top of orkish social scale - but still he had his place in Mordor. Could an orc serve Gondor or Rohan if he so wished? - No, he would have been hunted down like an animal. In Mordor an orc, an Easterling and even a Numenorean could have got a nice place, if he earned it. Quote:
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04-13-2008, 08:58 AM | #15 |
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Oh yes, equal rights... everybody a slave! You really are a nazgul, Gordis. I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion at least once before so I'm not going to go into this again.
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04-13-2008, 09:49 AM | #16 | ||
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But there are times when we do go out of our way for strangers, and this should have been such an occasion. To me, the reason is quite clear. That reason is the extraordinary magnitude of the situation, something that would be difficult to parallel in the real world. Although Gildor probably didn't fully appreciate the importance of what was happening (but he may have), he had to have a pretty good guess (also, as Gordis pointed out, he conveniently didn't ask too many questions). Gildor's list of excuses (which, yes, we all look for) is quite thin in my opinion. He apparently had no pressing business (he himself said he was tarrying). He wasn't traveling with children. Yes he could say it wasn't any of his concern and was dangerous. These are reasons people often give not to help others. Accepting that we are all selfish beings, I would say these are typically good reasons. But again, this isn't a typical situation. The well being of every person in Middle Earth (who couldn't run away to Valinor, at least) hinged on Frodo getting to Rivendell and Gildor, if he didn't know it, had to strongly suspect it. I didn't give the excuse that the Elves' presence would be a disadvantage to Frodo because I will never believe it. That these pitifully underprepared hobbits were better off alone that with a group of Noldorian Elves doesn't at all ring true and it isn't one of the reasons Gildor himself gave (those would be apathy and fear). If Gildor knew that Frodo's burden was the Ring, he had little reason to fear its effect on him and his companions because he couldn't possibly have known about Gollum's story and his was the only case of someone other that a ringholder being twisted by a ring of power at that date. Even if we accept that the Elves' presence would have compromised the hobbits' stealth (I don't), still that stealth was already failing. And stealth won't feed you on a long road when you get hungry and stealth certainly won't get you to a valley that you don't know how to find. Frodo never would have made it to Rivendell without further aid. Gandalf knew it, Aragorn openly said it, and Gildor knew it too. |
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04-13-2008, 10:28 AM | #17 |
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04-13-2008, 12:57 AM | #18 |
The Ñoldóran
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The point is that this wasn't Gildor's fight, and he didn't see himself as involved in the struggles of men (or hobbits).
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04-13-2008, 05:06 AM | #19 | ||||||
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I think this discussion is a lot on par with the one whether Elrond and Cirdan should have taken the Ring from Isildur on Mount Doom. I remember nearly every mooter said in a previous discussion they would have taken the ring from him. Sorry, but I don't believe that. But hindsight is 20/20. We know what happened to the Hobbits after they left Gildor, we judge Gildor accordingly. Gildor did NOT know what was going to happen, and he acted accordingly to what he did know or guessed. I think, given the situation as it was known then, pretty much none of us would have accompanied Frodo either.
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Although since the nazgul have been in the wraith world for so long, they should have adjusted to the warp better than the hobbits who only popped in an out on occasion. So that probably isn't a workable argument. So I'm more convinced of the nazgul being to focussed on the ringbearer to give much notice to the Elves (glowing or not) presence until he had to. Quote:
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04-13-2008, 08:57 AM | #20 |
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Gildor: "Is it not enough to know that they are servants of the Enemy?’ answered Gildor. ‘Flee them! Speak no words to them! They are deadly. Ask no more of me! But my heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you! Because I sure won't!"
Even the Hobbits themselves seemed enamored with Elves. They dropped the last sentence from most copies of the Red Book. Seriously, though, wonderful arguments on both sides here. While Tolkien surely didn't intend Gildor or any of the isolationist Elves to come across negatively, Gordis makes excellent and logical points that are difficult to deny.
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