Good Orcs?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Can you have good Orcs. You have evil men lik the Haradrim and Easterlings and you could easily have evil hobbit's, dwarves or elves. But the theory of a good orc doesn't sound plausible. Can you have them?

What about other evil creatures like trolls and Wargs?

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

You can have Orcs who are more self centerd as was shown in Lord of the Rings. Orcs who don't want to be dominated by Sauron, but they will always be evil. The orcs in question from LotR wanted to leave Sauron and have their own land. Though orcs are always evil due to the fact thats how and why they were created, malkor created the orcs and the trolls in spite of the valar.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Orcs were created for evil, but men were created for good and some of them turned evil.

[Sister Golden Hair]

From Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Volume 10, The Histories of Middle-earth Series:

But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.* This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded

See this thread.

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=9238

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

So orcs were not evil to start out with. Were there any good orcs during the Third Age or by that time were they all completly twisted.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

So orcs were not evil to start out with. Were there any good orcs during the Third Age or by that time were they all completly twisted.

This is a very complicated part of the mythology that Tolkien changed his mind on. The thread link that I provided discusses this. They are evil, but since they started out from something else, be it Elves or Men, they would not have been originally evil, but corrupted, manipulated, and twisted into what we know as Orcs

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Did they become evil during time o was that just the way men, elves, dwarves, hobbits etc. percieve them.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Did they become evil during time o was that just the way men, elves, dwarves, hobbits etc. percieve them.

Once they became Orcs they were evil. In the other thread, I posted quite a long quote from Myths Transformed. If you read what Tolkien's final word on the subject is, it will clear up some of this for you.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

So orcs were not evil to start out with. .

They were not Orcs to begin with. They were bred, geneticly altered, and manipulated by Morgoth, Sauron, and later Sarumam from other races (but tolkien was back and forth as to what race or races, with no clear conclusion).

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I feel that people are overlooking one major factor in the creation of the Orcs. The huge factor is this, they WERE formerly elves. They could not have been men, at least not the origional batch created by Morgoth. My reasoning for this is that in the times of war between Morgoth and the Elves before the sun rose there were orcs. As we all should know, men's awakening coincided with the rising of the sun. Therefore if there were no men before that time how could men be used in the creation of the origional orcs? Although Tolkien himself never officially said that orcs deffinitely came from elvses this must be irefutable evidence. Furthermore even if there were good orcs I don't feel any man, elf, dwarf, or any other of the free peoples of ME would deem them good. For example if they were more intelligent would chickens think humans were good? We eat their species, as the ords eat human flesh if they can. Though it is out of neccesity for them we deem anything that eats us under his own intelligence as evil. So Perhaps there were good Orcs, good on their own habitual terms. I don't feel there were any Orcs so good that they could have bonded or formed an allegiance with men or elves or any other free peoples. Though I am not Tolkien and I cannot say what is true.

[Attalus]

You need to read "Myths Transformed." As posted above, Tolkien came to believe that Orcs were not originally Elvish, or at least not wholly. Read the thread that SGH provides the link to.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

It does not even state there that they did not or even that they did form from elves. Though we can say that in the other post(the linked thread by SGH) it is said that there woiuld be no orcs then because they would be able to choose orc or elf. Yet I think that if Aule could create the dwarves o his own, could not the greatest among the valar(at least if he wascounted as vala he would be) create a new life using elves as a basis!? I think that Melkor could have created new life out of severe missery of elves! He made the orgigional orcs irredeimable and so spawned, as he elves do, little orclings. As tolkien has never said anywhich way this is a possibility.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

It does not even state there that they did not or even that they did form from elves. Though we can say that in the other post(the linked thread by SGH) it is said that there woiuld be no orcs then because they would be able to choose orc or elf. Yet I think that if Aule could create the dwarves o his own, could not the greatest among the valar(at least if he wascounted as vala he would be) create a new life using elves as a basis!? I think that Melkor could have created new life out of severe missery of elves! He made the orgigional orcs irredeimable and so spawned, as he elves do, little orclings. As tolkien has never said anywhich way this is a possibility.

Well, the Valar could not create other life. That was reserved to Eru alone. When Aule made the Dwarves, they were only like puppets. It was Iluvatar's final touch that brought them into being and that was after they slumbered to be awakened by Iluvatar only after the coming of the Firstborn.

As for the origin of Orcs: Tolkien says they came from Men and that was his final word on it. We can not change his ideas or his story nomatter how much we don't agree with his changes.

Orcs couldn't have been men since there were orcs before men even came on the scene.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Acran Mern

Orcs couldn't have been men since there were orcs before men even came on the scene.

Tolkien explains all that in "Myths Transformed." If Tolkien says they came from Men, then they came from Men.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Pardon my skepticism SisterGoldenHair, but I just can't believe that orcs came from men, and I also don't feel Tolkien actually would say definitly that they came from men. Perhaps you could use a quote from "Myths Transformed"(Which is out of which book?) to support your claim. Not to mention there are several changes to Tolkiens works. He revised hundreds of times without ever getting rid of the origional. I was reading "The Lost Road" yesterday and there are two different versions at least to the fall of Numenor. Now I could say that the version Tolkien did not ievitably use is still justified and can be used to back up my claim. However it wouldn't because although Tolkien himself wrote it, he did not write it as final in his works. So I wonder if this proof you "have" is final in Tolkiens world. Not to mention his son Christopher edited a lot of his works, there may be a possible error in the consistancy of your claim? Im just a skeptic, don't mind me...

[Sister Golden Hair]

From Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Volume 10, The Histories of Middle-earth series.

In that case the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought, though the beginning of their actual breeding must await the awakening of Men.
When Melkor was made captive, Sauron escaped and lay hid, in Middle-earth; and it can in this way be understood how the breeding of the Orcs (no doubt already begun) went on with increasing speed during the age when the Noldor dwelt in Aman; so that when they returned to Middle-earth they found it already infested with this plague, to the torment of all that dwelt there, Elves or Men or Dwarves. It was Sauron, also, who secretly repaired Angband for the help of his Master when he returned; and there the dark places underground were already manned with hosts of the Orcs before Melkor came back at last, as Morgoth the Black Enemy, and sent them forth to bring ruin upon all that was fair. And though Angband has fallen and Morgoth is removed, still they come forth from the lightless places in the darkness of their hearts, and the earth is withered under their pitiless feet.

This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought' it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned.
But, as always, it is not quite so simple. Accompanying one copy of the typescript of this essay are some pages in manuscript for which my father used the blank reverse sides of papers provided by the publishers dated 10 November 1969. These pages carry two notes on the 'Orcs' essay: one, discussing the spelling of the word orc, is given on p. 422; the other is a note arising from something in the essay which is not indicated, but which is obviously the passage on p. 417 discussing the puppet-like nature inevitable in creatures brought into being by one of the great Powers themselves: the note was intended to stand in relation to the words 'But the Orcs were not of this kind'

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

These pages carry two notes on the 'Orcs' essay: one, discussing the spelling of the word orc, is given on p. 422; the other is a note arising from something in the essay which is not indicated, but which is obviously the passage on p. 417 discussing the puppet-like nature inevitable in creatures brought into being by one of the great Powers themselves: the note was intended to stand in relation to the words 'But the Orcs were not of this kind'

First off, it is as I thought, an unfinished thought of J.R.R. Tolkien. He never finished it and never actually says that in 100% deffinition Orcs came from men. Christopher just assumes that his father intended for this to be factual, even though, as I have presented above, Tokien made a contridictory statement about the origions of orcs. If Orcs came from men before they awoke, then they would have been like puppets, puppet men deformed to orcs, waiting to raise withthe rest of men.(Like the Dwarves of Aule) Yet Tolkien says, "puppet-like nature inevitable in creatures brought into being by one of the great Powers themselves: the note was intended to stand in relation to the words 'But the Orcs were not of this kind'" Not of this Kind! So then which is fact I ask you? The answer is neither. Tolkien did not complete his theory, he only left us with a skeleton of an idea. We can take all of the information Tolkien has given and create a theory that is as close to reality as possible, and I feel that it is that Orcs came from the dark elves, the Avari of the Moriquendi.

[Sister Golden Hair]

When Tolkien says: "not of this kind," he is saying that the Orcs were not created by any of the powers, like the Dwarves were. They were never puppets originating from a creation of any of the Aniur, but were already an existing creation by Ilvuatar that was taken by Morgoth and bred into Orcs.

Also, the fact that much of this information is in books that are published posthumously by CT, does not make it not Tolkien's thoughts and/or work.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I never said it was not his work, but Christopher says, "MY FATHER" this part is Christophers work. Christopher is Assuming. Tolkien did write that, as far as we know, it was his ideas, as far as we know, but did he intend for that to be his final definition? I don't think so. And it was never stated that there was a final statement. To say that Tolkien said this and meant this and only this is inane. Tolkien did not specify clearly and dfefinitely. The end of that. Now there is only one real qrgument, did orcs come from elves or men? I say elves, how can orcs have come from something that did not exist before orcs? Like it is said not even melkor could breath life into a being and so the men who were Not awake could not be woken by melkor. Furthermore the orcs are not a creation on their own altogether as melkor could not have created something and given it life without eru's assistance. Soooo I fell that orcs came from elves.