An easier, less costly way to get the Ring to Oroduin...

[tolkienfan]

Here is an interesting idea I'd never considered.

http://www.tickld.com/x/this-guy-jus...ngs-mind-blown

It's an argument that Gandalf secretly planned all along for the Eagles to take them to Mordor, but the secret died with him in Moria. "Fly you fools" was a last-minute attempt to inform the Fellowship of his plan.

Clearly, the author wrote this argument based on the movies. It is Aragorn, not Gandalf who is hesitant to travel through Moria in the book. Also, I can't imagine why Gandalf wouldn't inform Aragorn at the very least of the real plan.

Can anyone point to more evidence for or against this theory based on material in the books or movies?

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by tolkienfan

Here is an interesting idea I'd never considered.
http://www.tickld.com/x/this-guy-jus...ngs-mind-blown
...
Can anyone point to more evidence for or against this theory based on material in the books or movies?

It is indeed interesting, but your question has prompted me to look and I think I can provide a quote to refute it.

From The White Rider chapter (emphasis mine):

'What do you wish to know?' said Aragorn. 'All that has happened since we parted on the bridge would be a long tale. Will you not first give us news of the hobbits? Did you find them, and are they safe?'
'No, I did not find them,' said Gandalf. 'There was a darkness over the valleys of the Emyn Muil, and I did not know of their captivity, until the eagle told me.'
'The eagle!' said Legolas. 'I have seen an eagle high and far off: the last time was three days ago, above the Emy Muil.'
'Yes,' said Gandalf, 'that was Gwaihir the Windlord, who rescued me from Orthanc. I sent him before me to watch the River and gather tidings. His sight is keen, but he cannot see all that passes under hill and tree. Some things he has seen, and others I have seen myself. The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.'

So Gandalf sent Gwaihir to gather news of the Company and their fate while he stayed at Lothlorien. It seems to me, if his plan were to enlist the eagles to help, the logical step would have been to have Gwaihir fly him to the Company instead and reveal himself to them so that Gwaihir would be there and help them with the last stage of the journey. Instead, he only sent Gwaihir to "gather tidings". Moreover, he played "some part" in the Ring not being revealed to Sauron. I assume this means that he was the voice in Frodo's head that told him to take the Ring off. If he could influence things this way, it seems to me he would have chosen to reveal himself to Frodo so that Frodo wouldn't take any action that would put the Ring "beyond [Gandalf's] help".

[Kevin McIntyre]

I agree Michael. I think Tolkien used DEM very judicously.

[Thorongil]

Oh if only Federal Express existed back in the thirties,

Just Imagine........

The Truck pulls up to Oroduin, Saurons in the shower, and shouts down ,
"Just leave it on the step"

The Ring rolls out of the package, teeters on the Edge of the Cracks of Doom and then rolls in,

Next scene Sauron gets to the Office and says to Witchy

"You wouldn't believe the morning ive had.... Oh Sh....."

[Ñólendil]

You know, I think afterall the whole 'The Fellowship should have used Eagles to get to Mordor' idea is about as logical as saying 'Sauron should have sent Dragons to the Shire instead of the Ringwraiths'.

[afro-elf]

Well since you said it, what if Sauron had sent Dragons to the Shire.

Would the Dragons in the Withered Heath have obeyed him.

Would they be able to carry the ring back with their claws being rather large?

Would they eat Frode and then regurgitate his remains with the ring?

Maybe the Nazgul would have rode the dragon's to the Shire.


If a fleet of Dragons came towards the Shire would the Eagles interfere then?

Maybe they would pick up Gandalf, Glorfindel, Elladan, Elrohir, Aragorn and four more to fight the Dragon riding Nazgul.


I jest here or do I?

[ChildofEru]

imho...
the use of Eagles was meant only to correct mistakes made and other unexpected events. Saruman became a servant of Sauron, captured Gandalf, Eagles came. (true Radagast helped in this but he wasn't the one who flew up there.) Im most likly wrong. but that is my theroy

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
You know, I think afterall the whole 'The Fellowship should have used Eagles to get to Mordor' idea is about as logical as saying 'Sauron should have sent Dragons to the Shire instead of the Ringwraiths'.

Good point. Besides both sides were relying on secrecy and stealth. Both of them didn't want the other side to find out what they were doing. They could have taken the eagle express, and Sauron could have brought on the dragons. But the both of them would have known immediatly what the other was up about. Wars are only won and lost for that matter by unexpected strategies.

[Earenya]

My best friend suggested the same idea-

At Rivendell, they should have decided to call up the Eagles.

But of course, we'd have been denied such wonderful stories...

[Laurelyn]

Aye, but if the eagles had flown Frodo to Mount Doom, would it not be posssible for them to be felled by some orc-arrow? Or did I miss something about them that would make that impossible?

The Eagle bearing Frodo in this Alternate Universe wouldn't have felt the weight of the Ring, though. Sam didn't when he carried Frodo, so why should the Eagle?

[Comic Book Guy]

Aye, but if the eagles had flown Frodo to Mount Doom, would it not be posssible for them to be felled by some orc-arrow? Or did I miss something about them that would make that impossible?

The Eagle bearing Frodo in this Alternate Universe wouldn't have felt the weight of the Ring, though. Sam didn't when he carried Frodo, so why should the Eagle?

The possibility of an Arrow striking a speeding Eagle hundreds of feet in the air is practically Zero. The Lord of the Rings is not based in an alternate universe, it is a history of this world, this has been touched in another thread elsewhere.

[markedel]

I think it has more to do with eagles being divine intervention-intervention that was only limited in scope by decree.

[Menelvagor]

I agree with all of your main points, but there's one thing I don't understand here. Why would Sauron be immediately aware of their tactics if they used the eagles? I would think that would be an unexpected strategy.

[olsonm]

The Eagles would be hard to miss! Besides, Sauron had a palantir.

[Menelvagor]

Well I think the eagles were pretty good at not being noticed, but I forgot about the palantir. Thanks Olsonm.

[Arathorn]

My take is that Olorin found out from Bilbo's and Frodo's actions how relatively resistant they were to the One Ring's effects and, of course, they already bore it.

Also it might have been less risky for a hobbit to bear it. Imagine if a great eagle were used and suddenly it went baddy on you and attacked. That would not only bring havoc to the allies but would have alerted Sauron at the very least as well.

This is assuming, of course, that Manwe allowed any of his beloved to take on such a task. He already sent Olorin, didn't he?

In Sauron's case, I think it would be like looking for a moving needle in a haystack. Every once in a while he gets to see the needle blinking but the needle also knows that it's been seen and quickly hides.

[olsonm]

Thanks for the thanks Menelvagor!
I think with a palantir Sauron would notice even a single eagle with Frodo on it and would have felt the Ring. Maybe if the eagle pulled a kamakazi (w/Frodo ) it might have succeded. But as others have pointed out, an eagle would be unlikely to do that.

[Menelvagor]

Thanks for the thanks for the thanks Olsonm! (sheesh, this could go on for a while...)

I am of the gerneral opinion that ChildofEru posted, that question had just been bugging me.

Feel free to ignore me, it's late and I'm half asleep, I porbably won't notice.

[olsonm]

Whether on foot or on air secrecy was a given. Frodo fell into the hands of the orcs and this was reported to Sauron. The fool! He knew Frodo was in Mordor but it never occured to him that he had the Ring. He assumed Frodo was a spy. If, however, he should happen to have noticed an eagle(he knew what they were)flying into Mordor he might have put 2 and 2 together.
Objections?

P.S. I would never ignore a fellow Entmootineer!

[Arathorn]

No objections.

I would like to add that seeing Pippin and later Aragorn on the live Isengard channel was the perfect smoke-screen. Seeing Isengard fall, then seeing his Captain fall in the Pelanor gave him the jitters.

Also, assuming Smeagol was also a hobbit, it would look like only hobbits and men were stupid enough to bear the ring from Sauron's POV. When Frodo was captured and the ring was not found on him, it was reported that an elf was still loose. It might have been less likely for him to think of that elf (Sam in actuality) as having the ring.

(Oh boy, I no longer rhyme)