Gandalf's Transformation

[Valandil]

I have a question - especially for those who have read the parts of HOME series that involve the development of the LOTR story.

A few weeks ago - a guy at work was talking about Gandalf's transformation from "the Grey" to "the White". Found that this guy has not read the books himself, but was informed by his "ultra-smart" older brother.

What he claimed was: that Gandalf had a choice of what he would come back as. For instance - could have chosen to be an Elf, or whatever.

I'm reasonably well-studied, and this sounded totally new to me. So, I wondered if he either got it wrong, or if there's something like this in HOME. Anybody familiar with that? Thanks!

[Alcuin]

It sounds like ‘his “ultra-smart� older brother’ has been playing a lot of Dungeons & Dragons, and assumed what happened to Gandalf is the old 7th-level Druid spell Reincarnate or 6th-level Magic-User spell of the same name. I guess he’s dispensing with the d00 roll; otherwise, Gandalf would have no choice in his form: he could’ve been a pixie, a faun, or a dwarf, too. (Presumably not a half-orc or hobgoblin, since one note says, “Very good or very evil persons will not be reincarnated as a creature whose general alignment is the opposite.�)

There are several paragraphs in Letter 156 in which Tolkien discusses Gandalf’s return with his friend, the Jesuit priest Robert Murray.

The “wizards� were not exempt [from temptation]; indeed being incarnate were more likely to stray... Gandalf alone fully passes the tests… [His] sacrifice … on the Bridge … was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

That … is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The “wizards�, as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. … He is still under the obligation of concealing his power …, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great … he can act in emergency as an “angel� … He was sent by a … prudent plan of the angelic Valar …; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it at the moment of its failure.

“Authority� is Eru, the One.

It is perhaps noteworthy that Gwaihir the Eagle told Gandalf, “You are light as a feather… The Sun shines through you.� It sounds like Gandalf returned faded, as the Elves were fading in Middle-earth and as Frodo was slightly faded by the Morgul-blade.

It’s hard to see Gandalf returning in this context as anything or anyone but “Gandalf�, albeit enhanced, “new and improved�. “Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf. Yes, you may still call me Gandalf.�

[Valandil]

Yes - that's the story as I know it. I have read everything authoritative on Gandalf - except whatever might be found in the HOME series.

I knew that an earlier concept of Gandalf was that he - and the Black Riders, I believe - were Numenoreans. And so I wondered if something like what I heard went along with that original concept, and that certain portions of the HOME might bring it to light.

[Earniel]

*haven't progressed as far in HoME, have been saving them for the proper moment, of which there haven't been as many around lately*

Originally Posted by Alcuin

It is perhaps noteworthy that Gwaihir the Eagle told Gandalf, “You are light as a feather… The Sun shines through you.” It sounds like Gandalf returned faded, as the Elves were fading in Middle-earth and as Frodo was slightly faded by the Morgul-blade.

Or Gandalf's being bound in flesh is not as strong as before his fight with the Balrog and subsequent bleeching. If the Valar reckoned their emissary needed more strenght upon his return, they may have 'lightened' the reincarnation progress. It would appear that a possessing a physical body put limits on certain mental, or magical power as seen with Sauron. So giving Gandalf a little less body may be a side-effect of heightened ainur-power. Maybe that's what Gwaihir detects.

[Valandil]

Don't forget - he hadn't had a bite to eat in some time!

[Alcuin]

Valandil, you’re right.

I looked through Return of the Shadow and Treason of Isengard tonight. I have recently re-read most of War of the Ring in the process of completing my reread of Lord of the Rings. (Many detailed maps in ToI and WotR.)

In WotR, “Siege of Gondor� (p 326 American paperback),

Denethor and Faramir marvel at Gandalf’s power over Nazgûl. Gandalf says things are not so bad – because the W[izard] King has not yet appeared. He reveals that he is a renegade of his own order … [?from] Númenor.

I suppose that “of his own order� means of Gandalf’s own order, the Wizards. I’m not quite sure when this passage was written, because:

In ToI, “XXIII Notes on Various Topics� (p 422, American paperback), Christopher Tolkien discusses “Some … notes [that] may well be earlier than the time we have reached, others later�. This short chapter is wedged between two chapters of material written in 1944.

The page I [CJRT] give first begins with the note ‘Wizards = Angels’, and this note is found on two other pages also. I take it to be the first appearance in written record of this conception, i.e., that the Istari or Wizards were angeloi, ‘messengers’, emissaries from the Lord of the West…

Gandalf to reappear. … He … became the White Wizard. … He has thus acquired something of the awe and terrible power of the Ring-wraiths, only on the good side…

The indented portion is Christopher Tolkien quoting his father’s papers. But the dating is unclear.

ToI, “Gandalf’s Delay� (p 9),

Gandalf has insufficient magic to cope with Black Riders unaided, whose king is a wizard

Op cit., “The Council of Elrond (1)� (p 132)

[T]he Chief of the Nine was of old the greatest of all the wizards of Men, and I have no power to withstand the Nine Riders when he leads them.

So at that point in the writing, I think sometime in the summer of 1940, probably August 1940 since the chapter “The Council of Elrond (1)� falls chronologically between two sections written about that time, I think we can safely say that

1. Gandalf was, or at least might have been, originally conceived of as a Man.
2. It’s possible, but not clear, that all the Wizards were initially conceived of as Númenóreans.
3. The Wizard King (the Witch-king of LotR) was the most powerful of the Wizards.
4. The Wizard King turned renegade. He received one the of the Rings either because
   1. he was desirous of more power, and so fell; or
   2. Sauron tricked him, and so he fell.
5. It follows (from 4) that the Wizard King was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey.
6. So naturally, Gandalf the Grey was unable to overcome the Ring-wraiths when the Wizard King led them
7. At some point – it isn’t clear when this happened, or at least Christopher Tolkien hadn’t decided when at the time he wrote those passages – JRR Tolkien decided that the Istari were not only different from Mortal Wizards, but were actually angelic beings (Maiar) sent from the Uttermost West.

A few pages later in WotR, “Siege of Gondor� (p 335), Tolkien wrote in his drafts,

The Nazgûl came once more, slaves of the Nine Rings, and to each, since now they were utterly subject to his will, their Lord had given again that ring of power that he had used of old.

I don’t know off-hand if that concept remained into the published version of Return of the King, but if it did, it would explain a lot of the “added demonic force� (Letters #210) of the Witch-king in the Siege of Gondor and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

Three things were definitely retained in the published story.

• The Witch-king was a Númenórean.
• The Witch-king was a sorcerer, and seems to be the greatest of sorcerers among Men.
• Gandalf said (FotR, “Council of Elrondâ€�)

  [E]ven the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear.

During the writing, however, the Istari were separated from Men who used magic, either magia (like the Dúnedain smiths who made the barrow-blades) or goeteia (like the Witch-king) with a significant difference: they weren’t Men, but angels (Maiar).

Gandalf’s power vis-Ã*-vis the Witch-king might have been altered, too. At Weathertop, the Witch-king with four of his fellows withdrew when Gandalf rode up in the daylight; but that night, Gandalf was “hard put to it. ... I could not hope to do more.â€� (Op. cit.)

However, Glorfindel said that he and a few others in Rivendell could “ride openly against the Nine�. Presumably Gandalf was more powerful than Glorfindel, but perhaps because he was wrapped in a mortal coil as one of the Istari, Glorfindel was able to wield more power than Gandalf the Grey.

I don’t think that means

Originally Posted by Valandil

that Gandalf had a choice of what he would come back as. For instance - could have chosen to be an Elf, or whatever.

But I would be delighted for the guy (or his brother) to prove me wrong. At least, I would enjoy the debate!

[Valandil]

Thanks for doing all that research Alcuin! I hope in the not-too-distant future to purchase and read the entire HOME series, and then I can answer these questions myself.

I think it's less than 50-50 that this idea of Gandalf having a choice, as was described to me, was ever in the storyline. But it's plausible - and may fit with this early concept of Gandalf. And - if this awesome older brother actually read HOME (and maybe there, found an obscure note to that effect), then he would be awesome indeed!

Meanwhile - I wonder if I can dig up more definitive information stating directly that Gandalf was Numenorean in early concept. Don't at all remember where this was.

[Butterbeer]

The trouble, i find, with reading Alcuin's posts is, very shortly, you have forgotten the original question, and before long you find yourself straying out of time and space, on new paths of which we shalt not speak (mainly because you then get diverted onto another thought or line of thoughts and forget them)... until at last darkness takes you...

No wonder, then, that Gandalf forgot to eat!
See? I've plum forgotten now what i was going to say.

..well blow me down with a feather!
*whistles* and throws arm out...

" An Eagle for BB, please!"

Ill have to come back to this when i can remember