Did Saruman kill Radagast?

[Valandil]

Crazy, after all this to-do, but I'm having second thoughts.

It might not have been so imperative for Saruman to kill Radagast after all. After all - with Gandalf's escape, his cover was blown. Saruman would now be known for who he was.

Maybe he WOULD make an attempt to lure him back to Isengard (and this DOES make sense as the best way for Saruman to go about taking him out - neither going to Rhosgobel himself or sending an agent (crossing the Anduin into that territory could have placed him at risk) or trying to get Sauron to do the job. And if he made some sort of attempt to lure him back - Radagast might well have left Rhosgobel. Then again - if he was successful in the attempt - Radagast may have gone to Isengard anyway.

What else accounts for Radagast's absence though? Did he, upon learning of Saruman's betrayal (possibly soon - from Gwaihir), spread the word to the creatures he cared so much about, especially any who might be likely to suffer in the days to come?

It IS curious that he doesn't seem to have much connection with the Ents. Or else, maybe he does, but Treebeard sees no reason to mention him in the same breath as Saruman and Gandalf. He WAS a different kind of Wizard. Might he seem to Treebeard as not even a Wizard at all? And Treebeard was not one to spill all his thoughts when speaking anyway.

[Alcuin]

Then we’re still left with “what became of Radagast?� Some possibilities:

1. He’s dead. Maybe Saruman et alia killed him, or he fell off a moonbeam: he’s dead.
2. He ran away from home. Whether he returned or not might be material to Eärniel’s story, but not to Tolkien’s story.
3. He just wasn’t home when Elrond’s messengers arrived. Whether he returned or not might be material to Eärniel’s story, but still not to Tolkien’s story.
4. Something else besides 1, 2, or 3, not material to Tolkien’s story. (Suggestions welcome!)
5. He’s just a dangling loose end, still not material to Tolkien’s story.

Maybe he’s helping the Beornings and Woodmen of Mirkwood during the War of the Ring. It’s conceivable he misled or confused Sauron’s forces in the forest.

It does seem like there should be a note on Radagast’s fate somewhere in Tolkien’s papers, but I’ve not heard mention of it.

Originally Posted by Valandil

It might not have been so imperative for Saruman to kill Radagast after all. After all - with Gandalf's escape, his cover was blown. Saruman would now be known for who he was.

Even so, Gandalf spoke to Théoden on 20 September 3018, two days after his escape from Orthanc. From then until he spoke to Théoden again in company with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli on 2 March 3019, 164 days passed, almost 5½ months. Théoden not only failed to react to Saruman, under the influence of Wormtongue he arrested and imprisoned Éomer, then sat moribund while his son and heir Théodred was killed in battle by Saruman’s forces. His lethargy is to the credit of GrÃ*ma Wormtongue; nevertheless, Saruman’s cover was “blown,â€� as you eloquently put it, and no one did anything about it.

Doubtless Elrond learned of Saruman’s treachery soon after Gandalf reached Rivendell on 18 October 3018, four weeks after Gandalf spoke to Théoden about it. The Council of Elrond, including Gildor of Lindon, did not learn about Saruman for another week; and if (as seems likely) it took about two weeks for Elrond’s messengers to reach Lórien, Galadriel and Celeborn did not find out until almost mid-November, nearly two months after Gwaihir the Eagle plucked Gandalf from Saruman’s claws, unless Gwaihir informed them.

In fact, no one did anything about Saruman until Gandalf the White confronted him in Isengard on 5 March 3019. Only Théoden accused Saruman of specific misdeeds: the deaths of his son Théoden, of Hama, chief of his household guard, and of the women and children of Westfold; and attempting to usurp the rule of Rohan to himself.

In contrast, Gandalf’s reproach of Saruman is not detailed. He did tell him that he kept “a clear… memory of your arguments, and deeds,� that “your neighbors you have made your enemies; and you have cheated your new master, or tried to do so.� But his chief accusation immediately precedes his breaking Saruman’s staff: “You might still have turned away from folly and evil, and have been of service. But you choose to stay and gnaw the ends of your old plots.� Never once does Gandalf detail specific charges against Saruman: his primary purposes seem to have been

1. to redeem Saruman, if possible;
2. to “disarm� him, if he would not repent, apparently depriving him of many of his powers, perhaps by breaking his wizard’s staff; and
3. to cast him from the order of the Istari, which may just be restating the second reason.

Gandalf could have accused Saruman of all manner of wickedness: mixing Men and Orcs, maybe even killing Radagast or trying to, if he did; but the two specific reasons Gandalf gives for punishing Saruman are clinging to folly and evil, and rejecting repentance. For want of a better phrase: willful moral turpitude.

At best, Radagast remains a loose end. I still think Saruman sought to kill him. If he did, I don’t know that Gandalf would mention it at Orthanc.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Crazy, after all this to-do, but I'm having second thoughts.

Heh. One's allowed to change one's mind in a discussion.

Maybe he WOULD make an attempt to lure him back to Isengard (and this DOES make sense as the best way for Saruman to go about taking him out - neither going to Rhosgobel himself or sending an agent (crossing the Anduin into that territory could have placed him at risk) or trying to get Sauron to do the job. And if he made some sort of attempt to lure him back - Radagast might well have left Rhosgobel. Then again - if he was successful in the attempt - Radagast may have gone to Isengard anyway.

While Saruman had the habit to go wandering about in Rohan (as on the occasion Gimli, Aragorn and Legolas saw him and came close to braining Gandalf when he showed up the next day in a similar fashion), he probably not went as far as Mirkwood. Saruman had no steed like Shadowfax and Mirkwood is far away from Isengard.

There is no mention of how Saruman contacted Radagast in the beginning and commanded him to find and send Gandalf to Isengard. But if he had use of the Crebain from Fangorn and Dunland as messengers he no doubt could have communicated with Radagast as much as he liked. (Although I remember the Crebain watching and spying the lands near the Fellowship, I don't recall that in the books it is implied they spied for Saruman, unlike in the movies. So maybe that point is, well, pointless.)

What else accounts for Radagast's absence though? Did he, upon learning of Saruman's betrayal (possibly soon - from Gwaihir), spread the word to the creatures he cared so much about, especially any who might be likely to suffer in the days to come?

While Radagast does not seem to have the wandering spirit of Gandalf, it is said nowhere that Rhosgobel was his permanent nor only abode. In fact, there are two mentions at least that his home had once been at Rhosgobel, i.o.w. it is not so at the time of the Fellowship. Then it shouldn't be so strange that Radagast was not at Rhosgobel, whether he was by then informed of Saruman's treachery or not.

It would also be interesting to know whether Radagast at this point in the story was already considered to have abandoned his mission, as 'the Istari'-essay in UT tells us he would eventually. But the essay does, as far as I know, not give a timeframe when he does so. If he had already lost interest in opposing Sauron when he seeks out Gandalf, the danger he posed to Saruman would have been greatly diminished. What would Saruman have to fear of a bird-tamer enamoured with beast and herbs with no regard to the fate of nations and people? Nothing, that's what.

It IS curious that he doesn't seem to have much connection with the Ents. Or else, maybe he does, but Treebeard sees no reason to mention him in the same breath as Saruman and Gandalf. He WAS a different kind of Wizard. Might he seem to Treebeard as not even a Wizard at all? And Treebeard was not one to spill all his thoughts when speaking anyway.

I don't know. Apart from his name, Treebeard talks and shares a lot of information. He talks about wizards, knows even where they came from and that it's not just Gandalf and Saruman. It would make sense to at least namedrop Radagast at that point?

But... he also calls Gandalf "the only wizard interested in trees". So maybe there's my answer: Treebeard may know of Radagast, but Radagast just isn't into trees and therefor of little consequence to Treebeard and thus not worth mentioning.

I had a look into what was said about Radagast and while birds and beasts are named often in connection to them, there's only one mention I found connected to plants and that was only herbs. Perhaps even his early name 'Aiwendil' should have been an indication. Clearly the evidence points to Radagast's field of interest not completely overlapping with his patron Vala.

EDITTED TO ADD: Now that I think about it, if Radagast had cared about trees and had been pals with Treebeard, this would have spelled quite a few plotting issues for Tolkien to have the events between Isengard, Fangorn and Rohan go as he wanted to. Perhaps this was a plot that was best without one more wizard.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

[*]He’s just a dangling loose end, still not material to Tolkien’s story.

I think that is what describes Radagast best, IMO, he's a loose end but a tiny one.

In a way it's odd because Tolkien was into tying up loose ends in the final parts of LoTR. What isn't resolved in the story proper, gets a send-off of a sort in the appendices. Other figures at least have some material on them in other writing. Radagast gets even a speaking part in LoTR but elsewhere he rates barely above the Blue Wizards and they are a mere detail (an interesting one, rife with fanfic possibilities, mind but still but a detail.)

Radagast either completely slipped Tolkien's mind or he always was more of disposable plot-device to get an unsuspecting Gandalf into Saruman's clutches rather than character that deserved closure.

His lethargy is to the credit of GrÃ*ma Wormtongue; nevertheless, Saruman’s cover was “blown,” as you eloquently put it, and no one did anything about it.

[...]In fact, no one did anything about Saruman until Gandalf the White confronted him in Isengard on 5 March 3019. Only Théoden accused Saruman of specific misdeeds: the deaths of his son Théoden, of Hama, chief of his household guard, and of the women and children of Westfold; and attempting to usurp the rule of Rohan to himself.

I think us coming from a world rife with unions, federations and global treaties often overlook the absense of such things in Middle-earth's Third Age. There is but a handful of nations and peoples, almost all declining and all isolated and isolationary. There's no large overlooking organisation that deals with diplomacy or justice. Barely any nation has an actual ally nearby. The White Council contained only the Eldar states (not even the Silvan Elves) lasted but a few centuries and was already as good as defunct but a few years after the Battle of the Five Armies. They had no mandate, no unity, no consensus with Saruman effectively sabotaging them in the end, no power over anything but their separate domains. But aside from them whoever in Middle-earth even had the skill to look at the whole picture?

Even the Council of Elrond has all the makings of a one-time affair. And it is to do with one specific issue: what to do with the Ring. It isn't even really about stopping Sauron and creating World Peace, it's just that they don't want him to get the Ring (or anyone else, really).

So to pull this back to the original topic: If Radagast knowing or not knowing about Saruman's true motives mattered so little (because even when Gandalf shared this information with everybody precious little changed), why would Saruman even bother eliminating Radagast?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Heh. One's allowed to change one's mind in a discussion.

I suppose. Never seems to happen on the internet though. Certainly not on Facebook!

There is no mention of how Saruman contacted Radagast in the beginning and commanded him to find and send Gandalf to Isengard. But if he had use of the Crebain from Fangorn and Dunland as messengers he no doubt could have communicated with Radagast as much as he liked. (Although I remember the Crebain watching and spying the lands near the Fellowship, I don't recall that in the books it is implied they spied for Saruman, unlike in the movies. So maybe that point is, well, pointless.)

I think they WERE spying for Saruman. I don't think Sauron had a great amount of spies so far away from Mordor. We don't see the crebain - or other birds - continue to hound the fellowship after their trip through Moria, when they're closer to Sauron's sphere of influence. So I concur that they're Saruman's spies.

In a way it's odd because Tolkien was into tying up loose ends in the final parts of LoTR. What isn't resolved in the story proper, gets a send-off of a sort in the appendices. Other figures at least have some material on them in other writing. Radagast gets even a speaking part in LoTR but elsewhere he rates barely above the Blue Wizards and they are a mere detail (an interesting one, rife with fanfic possibilities, mind but still but a detail.)

Radagast either completely slipped Tolkien's mind or he always was more of disposable plot-device to get an unsuspecting Gandalf into Saruman's clutches rather than character that deserved closure.

Or... maybe he WASN'T a loose end anymore, because Saruman had killed him.