LOTR re-read :)

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I'm actually finishing something else too - before I start "The Hobbit". ... I started some threads about three years ago that are still on this first page. Maybe that was the time of my last re-read. I see about four of them. Shall I *bump* as we get to those parts? All are from pretty early in the book.

Yes, please bump them.

I’ve just completed re-reading The Hobbit. I need to write and post an essay before I begin Fellowship of the Ring; I’ll try to complete that this week. So I’ll be a laggard, too.

A thought has been burning in my mind for many months now, though: the Forward says,

Three Elf-towers of immemorial age were still to be seen on the Tower Hills beyond the western marches. They shone far off in the moonlight. The tallest was furthest away, standing alone upon a green mound. The Hobbits of the Westfarthing said that one could see the Sea from the lop of that tower; but no Hobbit had ever been known to climb it.

Those towers were built by Gil-galad, either for Elendil or given to him upon his arrival in Middle-earth. The tallest one was where the last of the palantÃ*ri of Arnor was kept, the one that looked upon Avallónë in Tol Eressëa. I think Elendil used it to communicate with his father, Amandil, and with the Elven friends of the Lords of Andúnië who gave Amandil the palantÃ*ri; after he died, no Dúnadan used it again, but the Eldar made pilgrimages to look into it: Gildor Inglorion and his companions who met Frodo, Sam, and Pippin in the Woody End just as the Nazgûl (Khamûl) overtook and was about to capture them, had just returned from such a pilgrimage; Tolkien indicates they had seen a vision of Elbereth Gilthoniel in the palantÃ*r.

After the departure of Elrond and most of the remaining Eldar, that strip of land was empty and the towers unguarded. At Sam’s request (probably more as a suggestion to the King) as Mayor of the Shire, they were added to the Shire, and Sam’s son-in-law, Elanor’s husband Fastred of Greenholm, was made Warden of Westmarch. I believe the towers then fell under his care. I imagine he was given the keys to the towers – and I also think it quite possible that after Sam left Middle-earth following the death of Rose, his wife, that Elanor climbed the tower to look into the West, where her beloved father had gone.

Just a little imagination.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Yes, please bump them.
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But later I thought, "Really - this whole FORUM is full of threads inspired by reading through LOTR. So that would be a little ego-centric of me."

I'll join you on that Tower discussion. I think it's left ambiguous enough that Elendil could have built them. And while it's clear Elendil himself looked into the palantir of Elostirion, I don't see any reason why none of his heirs would have also done it. However - I don't think they'd be as fixated on it as he was. Maybe once each - out of curiosity - until too much Middle Earth pulled them away from it (just as RL does that to us). So you think Amandil was still alive - living in Elvenhome?

I have wondered if Elendil's wife had passed away - either in Numenor or on the journey - and if he used the palantir to look into his past there.

One passage or sentence someplace indicates to me that each palantir had a Warden assigned to keep it. I think this was likely so of the stone at Elostirion as well.

This surely deserves a thread.

Have you ever seen my thread about Elendil watching for Gil-galad at Amon Sul? Forget whether you contributed there.

[Alcuin]

Yes, this probably requires its own thread. And I probably need to finish the essay I began on it years ago.

Originally Posted by Valandil

Have you ever seen my thread about Elendil watching for Gil-galad at Amon Sul? Forget whether you contributed there.

Yes, I did: “Elendil on Amon Sul�. I asked who would watch a good football game on television when he could have the best seat in the stadium to see it with his own eyes? I think once Gil-galad and his army came in sight, Elendil went out first to see them with his own eyes, and then down to meet them personally.

Originally Posted by Valandil

I think it's left ambiguous enough that Elendil could have built them. And while it's clear Elendil himself looked into the palantir of Elostirion, I don't see any reason why none of his heirs would have also done it.

Footnote 16 in “The PalantÃ*riâ€� in Unfinished Tales says,

One [palantÃ*r] only remained in the North, the Elendil Stone on Emyn Beraid, but this was one of special properties, and not employable in communications. Hereditary right to use it would no doubt still reside in the “heir of Isildur,â€� the recognized chieftain of the Dúnedain… But it is not known whether any of them, including Aragorn, ever looked into it... This Stone and its tower were maintained and guarded by CÃ*rdan and the Elves of Lindon. [Author’s note.] – It is told in Appendix A (I, iii) to The Lord of the Rings that the palantÃ*r of Emyn Beraid “was unlike the others and not in accord with them; it looked only to the Sea. Elendil set it there so that he could look back with ‘straight sight’ and see Eressëa in the vanished West…â€� Elendil’s vision of Eressëa in the palantÃ*r of Emyn Beraid is told of also in “Of the Rings of Powerâ€� (The Silmarillion …); “it is believed that thus he would at whiles see far away even the Tower of Avallónë upon Eressëa, where the Master-stone abode, and yet abides.â€� …

The palantÃ*ri were gifts of the Eldar of Tol Eressëa to Amandil, Elendil’s father and last Lord of Andúnië, when the persecution of Ar-Gimilkhâd became so severe that the Eldar could no longer risk sailing to Númenor even in secret. That indicates the initial reason for the gift was so that the House of Valandil of Andúnië could remain in contact with their friends in Tol Eressëa. (It might also be the source of the coronation name of Gimilkhâd’s elder son and successor: Tar-PalantÃ*r.)

You are correct, Valandil, in saying that nothing excludes Elendil’s successors from ever looking into the Emyn Beraid (Elostirion) stone; but I seem to remember reading that was the case. When Elrond left Middle-earth, he took it with him (probably with Aragorn’s permission, though maybe not), forever severing communication between Middle-earth and the Uttermost West.

And yes, I do think Amandil and his faithful servant made it to Eldamar or Tol Eressëa to beg the Valar to spare the Faithful Númenóreans: I cannot prove it, but I think we can attribute the escape of Elendil and his sons and seven ships of followers from the wreck of Númenor to Amandil’s embassy. Afterwards, it was not possible for Amandil to return to walk among mortal Men, since the Straight Road was available only to the Elves; but they could not kill him. I think he lived out the rest of his days in Tol Eressëa with the exiled Noldor, and was buried there; and I believe that an age of the world later, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli did, too. Amandil should have lived about 60 years beyond the Downfall of Númenor, long enough for Elendil either to speak to him or get word of him. In any event, Elendil would have kept communication with the Eldar of Tol Eressëa – he was no doubt under instruction from his father, who received the palantÃ*ri from them, to do so; and Gil-galad and the other Eldar, especially the exiled Noldor of Middle-earth, might have used it for that purpose, too.

Which brings us to a final point in this rambling post: If Amandil felt he had to break the Ban of the Valar and sail to Eldamar to speak to the Valar, why could he not do so simply through the palantÃ*ri? Their original purpose was to maintain communication between Númenor and Tol Eressëa. I think the answer must be that either the Valar refused to treat with him directly through the seeing-stones or indirectly through his friends and allies among the Eldar, or else they rebuffed him outright. His plan to sail to Valinor must be seen for what it was: utterly desperate, with little hope of success in his arrival, his admittance, or his pleas.

[Valandil]

When I say that it's ambiguous enough that Elendil could have built them - I refer to the three towers, not the palantiri.

[Rían]

Finishing up with chapter 1 -

It continues to amaze me that having read LOTR so many times, I can still re-read it with such great enjoyment and knowing that I'll find new things still. It's just such a deep, detailed work.

I love the Gaffer's comment "If that's being queer, then we could do with a bit more queerness in these parts." because it shows again Bilbo's great generosity of character, especially towards the poor, and the Gaffer's value of this generosity above someone being somewhat "strange" according to hobbit standards.

The day before the party when it clouded over - "Anxiety was intense." Just such fun understated humor! "We may not get our food!!!"

I like how they talk about the fireworks - amazing descriptions! and he's so clever with names, like "goblin barkers"

I like when Bilbo leaves the Shire, and JRRT says "and he was never seen by any hobbit in Hobbiton again" - these little "warnings" he gives us that this story will be more serious than the Hobbit ...

I love how the old dwarf cloak and hood are so precious to Bilbo - "They had been locked up as if they were very precious, but they were so patched and weather stained that their original colour could hardly be guessed". I think we all have things like that - their value is what they stand for, not how much they are "worth" in mere money.

Comparing Bilbo and Frodo as Bilbo leaves - Bilbo was ready to go, but Frodo wasn't. Yet Bilbo wasn't ready to go on his journey in the Hobbit. Interesting how it was different...

I wondered - what were Bilbo's biggest inducements to give up the ring? He didn't like how it was affecting him? Gandalf's advice? I think it was the former, but strengthened by the latter. But when it came to the actual giving up the ring, I think B's trust and love of G is what enabled him to actually do it. So interesting that B thought he actually DID leave the envelope to Frodo, but it was in his pocket still ... do you think he actually believed he left it? I do. The ring is so deceptive!!

I love how Gandalf loves Bilbo and Frodo. He seems a very loving (if rather gruff!) guy - such a contrast with Sauron and Saruman, who look at people as "how can they be useful to me?" I love that bit when G looks after B - " 'Goodbye, my dear Bilbo - until our next meeting!' he said softly and went back indoors."

Love the wheelbarrow removal of those who "inadvertently remained behind"

And a funny note - my kids first came across LOTR by my reading it to them on a long road trip. For many chapters, they thought "Merry" was "Mary" - i.e., a girl! They finally asked me "why does it say 'he' when the book talks about Mary?" I had to explain that it was "Merry", and he was a guy!

[Valandil]

Rian - how's the re-read progress going?

Alcuin - further thoughts on Elendil at the Elostirion Stone: I wonder if the palantiri prompt a compulsive reaction from humans, much like a computer screen or smart phone display of today. Was Elendil addicted? We know that his name basically means "Elf Friend" - and that he truly was an Elf Friend. Did he spend all his time friending every single Elf in Westernesse?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Valandil

…I wonder if the palantiri prompt a compulsive reaction from humans, much like a computer screen or smart phone display of today. Was Elendil addicted? We know that his name basically means "Elf Friend" - and that he truly was an Elf Friend. Did he spend all his time friending every single Elf in Westernesse? …

I don’t think they could be addictive. Tolkien says (in Unfinished Tales) that using a palantÃ*r was quite tiring, a side effect that probably discouraged overuse.

Gandalf told Pippin that “the Orthanc-stone so bent towards Barad-dûr that, if any save a will of adamant now looks into it, it will bear his mind and sight swiftly thitherâ€�. It sounds like just looking into it, with Sauron anxiously and impatiently awaiting an overdue report by an untrustworthy Saruman, meant that the user immediately saw Sauron, who seems to have kept the captured Ithil-stone close by; Aragorn initially met Sauron, too. The Ithil-stone and Anor-stone were in close alignment, too: that’s why the Stewards were reluctant to use their palantÃ*r after Minas Ithil fell.

As for the Elendil-stone, I suspect all the Arnor palantÃ*ri were left in Arnor when its army marched away. Elendil never looked into again, nor did Isildur. Any friendships and alliances meant to be maintained with that stone were broken with their deaths: Valandil of Annúminas never had the introductions and opportunities to meet the Eldar of Tol Eressëa who were so important to the Lords of Andúnië that both the Elves and the Númenóreans risked their lives to maintain them, not to mention the treasure the Eldar gave.