Finrod, Sauron and the Ring

[afro-elf]

My comment about finrod and elendil is that gil- and elendil bested sauron and but gil wasn't calaquendi and fin was giving him a better shot a surviving

the idea of sauron being more powerful has be taken been up before

Does the end of the 1st age after the war of wrath when he was defeated.

does it mean innate power.

does it mean land area controlled

does it mean influence

How can anyone be superior to someone else?

is this a serious question?

in fact was he least among the powers

is this explicited stated somewhere?

I have no doubt that Húrin could have done what Fingolfin did.

weakened vala or no he wasn't a push over. and great power was still in him. Fingolfin was a calaquendi or the hightest order and even though i've great respect for hurin i don't think he could have taken fingolfin less and on Morgoth

many Maiar were above him in affective power

what are you qualifying as MANY

Calaquendë, Sinda and Avar, Denzel. You know I have to nit-pick

just keeping you on your toes now that you've got a life

[afro-elf]

also

it says in the SIL that morgoth's might was the GREATEST OF ALL THINGS IN THE WORLD

at least at that time

[Ñólendil]

Does the end of the 1st age after the war of wrath when he was defeated.

does it mean innate power.

does it mean land area controlled

does it mean influence

I have a very good answer for that. The text that talks about is in Morgoth's Ring, but I typed it all up and posted it in this thread. It's called "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion".

is this a serious question?

No, it's rhetorical. I might have said "No one is superior to anyone else".

is this explicited stated somewhere?

I think so. If so it would be in Morgoth's Ring, probably in Myths Transformed. Of course when he was first created and for a long while after that he was the greatest being ever created by God. But by the end of the First Age he was much diminished.

weakened vala or no he wasn't a push over. and great power was still in him.

True.

what are you qualifying as MANY

Just an opinion of mine. I wouldn't say "most", so I don't know. I don't know, maybe by the end of the First Age 10% of the Maiar were greater than he was. Maybe not. I don't know.

it says in the SIL that morgoth's might was the GREATEST OF ALL THINGS IN THE WORLD

at least at that time

I wouldn't say "at least". Certainly at one time there was no one more powerful than Melkor save Eru, but things changed.

[afro-elf]

Great post you linked to.

you are the scribe of the moot

[Tar-Elendil]

i havent even begun to personally attack other mooters. and im not going to be worried about it when people act assanine to me ..im not being nice? ha..whaever..
i apologize if i offended anyone..hows that for nice?

[Ñólendil]

once again read some more and then talk to me. Now i see why they call you sauron's nagging wife.

Surely this is an unkind thing to say? "Read some more and then talk to me", this can be understood to mean that you are implying Sauron's Nagging Wife is in some way inferior to you, that she should do more research before even attempting to start up a conversation about Tolkien with you. I'm not an admin anymore, so I'm not trying to moderate, anyone can say you're not being nice. And obviously your apology is not sincere. It's really none of my business, I just don't think a debate about Sauron is any reason to insult someone, directly or indirectly. I mean, is there any reason to care that much?

[Wayfarer]

When you compare morgoth and sauron, you've got to realize that sauron spent the second age consolidating and centralizing his power, while morgoth spent the first age spreading his out through beleriand.

So sauron could bring overwhelming force to bear on a small area, while morgoth had power over a great distance, but couldn't bring as much to bear as quickly.

And I've always had the idea that he made pretty quick work of Gil galad and Elendil, but got distracted and Isildur cut off his ring.
I think that sauron would have absolutely crushed finrod at the end of the second age.

As Blackheart once said 'In the second age, he was only barely defeated by the combined forces of the greatest kings of men and elves. In the first age he lost to a girl and a dog."

[Tar-Elendil]

i apologized and if you think it insincere, be that as it may. And im not saying anyone is inferior to me
once againm i apolgize to her. i am sorry, i truly am, but dont freakin lecture me dude.
if two apolgies isnt good enuff for you, then i dont really care.

[Ñólendil]

I could lecture you about the word "dude", but I won't Oops, too late. No apology at all is good enough for me, I'm just nagging.

In the first age he lost to a girl and a dog."

Oh, come on. The dog was a Maia and the girl was the greatest of all the Eldar. I should smack Xandre for using a bad example.

[Wayfarer]

In his defense, he did qualify his statement, but I conveniently left that part out.

But I've always wondered whenter Huan was actually a maia... he was one of orome's hunting dogs, was he not? Also, it doesn't seem to fit with the other animals brought from valinor. Shadofax was supposedly descended from orome's horse... and the kine of araw were likewise descended from orome's hunting stock.

on the other hand, huan was somewhat unique among animals.

[afro-elf]

And I've always had the idea that he made pretty quick work of Gil galad and Elendil, but got distracted and Isildur cut off his ring.

I always thought that Gil, elendil and sauron slew each other and isildur cut the ring off after sauron "died"

I think that sauron would have absolutely crushed finrod at the end of the second age

again my point was not one on one combat. it was finrod and elendil. And, the idea of finrod being a powerful calaquendi while gil was power a noldor but not calaquendi

[afro-elf]

Luthein was 1/2 calaquendi and 1/2 maia

[Ñólendil]

But I've always wondered whenter Huan was actually a maia...

Tolkien names him a Maia, I believe it's in Morgoth's Ring. The idea I suppose is that he was a Maia of Orome, who for some mysterious reason was put into or chose to assume the form of a Hound. It makes sense really, Werewolves and Wargs are often described as demonic. Perhaps he had commited some minor crime and that was his punishment, but he also chose to go on the Rebellion of his own free will. That would explain (kind of) why he would only be permitted to speak three times. I mean if he was being punished in some way.

[MasterMothra]

from reading the sil, gathered that sauron slew both gil galad and elendil, then fell down. then isuldur saw the ring and cut it from saurons hand while sauron was down.

as far as morgoth was concerned, at the time he fought fingolfin "his might was still greatest of all things in this world". what fingolfin did was the most valiant in me, but he was still no match for the power of a valar. and imho there were no mair that would stand a chance against morgoth. it took a host of men, elves, dwarves and valar to defeat him.

even dimenished, sauron was a most formidible foe for any, be it men or elf.

i know i am the minority here, but i feel i must "represent" for my dark homeys.

[Ñólendil]

as far as morgoth was concerned, at the time he fought fingolfin "his might was still greatest of all things in this world". what fingolfin did was the most valiant in me, but he was still no match for the power of a valar. and imho there were no mair that would stand a chance against morgoth. it took a host of men, elves, dwarves and valar to defeat him.

If Tolkien ever said what you said in your first sentence there, and I don't doubt it, he later changed his mind. It's all in Morgoth's Ring. You mention all the hosts it took to defeat Morgoth. But they fought Morgoth's armies, not Morgoth himself. Morgoth's might was still greatest of all the things in this world, but only when all the things he had disseminated his power throughout were united. When his armies were crushed, he his in the deepest caverns of Angband and was unvaliant. He cowered before whoever came there, Eonwe, or Tulkas or whomever. Then his feet was cut out from under him, his crown was beat into a collar and he was taken back to Aman, where he was executed.

And I'm not even so sure about Fingolfin's valor. Was it valor or madness?

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Ñólendil

And I'm not even so sure about Fingolfin's valor. Was it valor or madness?

Extreme valor requires a bit of madness, doesb't it? I think someone said if courageous were completely sensible they would avoid battle all together.

You link was right on about Melkor in a way I hadn't thought about. He had great power in the "magical" sense (creation of dragons, rending the land, bending the will of opponents), but strictly in combat he was not the greatest warrior of the Valar.

Fingolfin might have had a decent chance in other circumstance. Grond hammering away at him on the enemies "home turf" limited his attack. How would Melkor have fared on neutral ground?

"It's just a flesh wound"

"You foot's off!"

[Ñólendil]

Hey, you're right. Good points!

("I cut your leg off!", "No, you didn't", "Yes, I did! Look!", ... "I've had worse", "Liar")

[Tar-Elendil]

it says in the SIL that morgoth's might was the GREATEST OF ALL THINGS IN THE WORLD

yea, and it also says that alone of all the vala he knew fear.
morgoth was scared he would get his arse kicked
fingolfin i cant say the same thing..he was doing it becuz he could see the fall of the Noldor and didnt seem very "scared"..at all