feanor a villian - Page 4

afro-elf · 06-03-2002, 12:57 AM

Bop thanks for the challenge I haven't had this much fun since the anti-theist thread.

You Jar Jar lovin, Christian, goddess of sheep of third rate wool

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-03-2002, 12:57 AM

But they chose to go with him and forsake Aman.

I would also agree that he was tainted, but I agree with BoP. He was too driven by his pride and his emotions, but he was not inherently evil.

He held his sons to an oath they swore in front of the Valar. And what would have happened if he had released them from their oath?

afro-elf · 06-03-2002, 01:00 AM

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But then we could say that if it were not for Morgoth bringing lies between the Noldor and poisoning their minds against the Valar, none of this would have happened.

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Cyclic reasoning at best.

Yet it WAS his personal choices that doomed them and i don't see how repentence would have caused more evil.

BeardofPants · 06-03-2002, 01:00 AM

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Originally posted by afro-elf
Bop thanks for the challenge I haven't had this much fun since the anti-theist thread.

You Jar Jar lovin, Christian, goddess of sheep of third rate wool

Why don't you bring your nubian third rate a$$ over here and say that?

And Jar Jar rules.

Later edit: Oh, and Christian?!
*Scandalised look*

BeardofPants · 06-03-2002, 01:03 AM

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Originally posted by afro-elf

Yet it WAS his personal choices that doomed them and i don't see how repentence would have caused more evil.

Yes. But an oath was sworn before the valar. To break your word on an oath... well...

Later edit: And you could almost argue that by keeping the oath instead of reneging, that he was biding by what little "good" was in him...

BoP: Kicking Nubian a$$ since the event of flatulence.

afro-elf · 06-03-2002, 01:08 AM

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Why don't you bring your nubian third rate a$$ over here and say that?

Hey My Nubian a$$ is top notch.

and to through you off i as use my subtle arts to hit the libidious parts of your mind

Look there's an CHAIR

Does anyone think that unrestrained pride is a taint.

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But they chose to go with him and forsake Aman.

t

hey were swayed by his prodigious talents

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 06-03-2002, 01:09 AM

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Originally posted by afro-elf

Yet it WAS his personal choices that doomed them and i don't see how repentence would have caused more evil.

Was it not their choice to follow him willingly? Remember, not all the Noldor went to Middle-earth, and not all that did go followed Feanor. Also, the Oath of Feanor did not doom the nation of the Noldor. All were wrapped up in the Doom of Mandos though, but they did not realize that.

BeardofPants · 06-03-2002, 01:16 AM

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Originally posted by afro-elf
Look there's an CHAIR

WHERE?!

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Does anyone think that unrestrained pride is a taint.

Pride brings up an interesting question. Why did Eru grant him the so-called talents to be prideful about? He must have forseen the events that logically follow giving a male such a big head...

afro-elf · 06-03-2002, 01:18 AM

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And you could almost argue that by keeping the oath instead of reneging, that he was biding by what little "good" was in him...

I don't know about that. That is really pushing it. I don't see the Valar or Eru punishing Him or the Noldar for repenting. That would be cruel. perhaps a pentence of some kind. But I think that would have been the greatest act of kindness I ME. If they had repented and were for forgiven.

BUT still what GREATER evil would have arisen?

Oh that was KICKING, I that was something else

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Was it not their choice to follow him willingly? Remember, not all the Noldor went to Middle-earth, and not all that did go followed Feanor. Also, the Oath of Feanor did not doom the nation of the Noldor. All were wrapped up in the Doom of Mandos though, but they did not realize that.

We ARE starting to go in cirlces here.

I stick to the repentence and feanor is an !@#$%^&*

BeardofPants · 06-03-2002, 01:23 AM

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Originally posted by afro-elf
I don't know about that. That is really pushing it. I don't see the Valar or Eru punishing Him or the Noldar for repenting. That would be cruel. perhaps a pentence of some kind. But I think that would have been the greatest act of kindness I ME. If they had repented and were for forgiven.

Yes, but the first sin had already been commited in the "garden of eden" (CALL ME A CHRISTIAN WILL YOU, YOU NUBIAN SON OF A BOOGER?!), with the burning of the ships (not just any ships, but the finest fleet to ever be built - akin to the silmarils), plus the spilling of blood in Valinor. That oath is as binding as the events that followed. If he repented the oath, then those people really would have died in vain.

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We ARE starting to go in cirlces here.

And I have to say here that the Noldor willingly followed him. It was not just Feanor's charisma that caused this "rebellion".

afro-elf · 06-03-2002, 01:27 AM

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Pride brings up an interesting question. Why did Eru grant him the so-called talents to be prideful about? He must have forseen the events that logically follow giving a male such a big head...

AAAARRRGGGGHHH!!! Theology has come run for your lives!

OSSE directly served Morgoth and was forgiven.

It seems that Tolkien considered pride to be the chief sin in his world.

As for theology well that's always precarious ground for logic.

I guess you would have formed the simarils into 3 great chairs and would have lead the sheep far afield.

afro-elf · 06-03-2002, 01:32 AM

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If he repented the oath, then those people really would have died in vain.

Who would have died in vain? The Teleri or the Feanoreans or both?

But repentence would have stop future pain and suffereing in all those First Age wars.

I'm still failing to so see how repentence would have been worse.

BeardofPants · 06-03-2002, 01:35 AM

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Originally posted by afro-elf
AAAARRRGGGGHHH!!! Theology has come run for your lives!

Quit tarring me with that brush, you nubian fiend. That's not the droid I was looking for.

I just meant, why give Feanor the skills in the first place to enable such power? Some of it was free will granted, (if you believe that there is such thing as free will), BUT he was DESIGNED. His flaws are Eru's flaws.

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It seems that Tolkien considered pride to be the chief sin in his world.

Yes. Morgoth being the Father of Pride...

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As for theology well that's always precarious ground for logic.

Indeed it is. But when in Rome...

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I guess you would have formed the simarils into 3 great chairs and would have lead the sheep far afield.

I majored in "leading fools astray" 101.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-03-2002, 01:39 AM

Feanor was not evil, he just had his faults, same as everyone else. He just let his faults cause a LOT of trouble. He's still not a 'villain.'

Again, what precisely would have happened if they had repented? First, both the Teleri and the Noldor would have died in vain. . .

BeardofPants · 06-03-2002, 01:39 AM

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Originally posted by afro-elf
Who would have died in vain? The Teleri or the Feanoreans or both?

Both.

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But repentence would have stop future pain and suffereing in all those First Age wars.

Would it have? I doubt it. Remember a lot of the rifts were not caused by the oath, but by the spilling of blood.

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I'm still failing to so see how repentence would have been worse.

He swore an oath. Morgoth had the Silmarils. 'Nuff said. You want that they should have left the Silmarils in HIS keeping?!

afro-elf · 06-03-2002, 01:42 AM

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And I have to say here that the Noldor willingly followed him. It was not just Feanor's charisma that caused this "rebellion".

Could that have been held under the power of his voice? Ala Saruman?

( gotta reread the Sil again)

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I just meant, why give Feanor the skills in the first place to enable such power? Some of it was free will granted, (if you believe that there is such thing as free will), BUT he was DESIGNED. His flaws are Eru's flaws.

Its the if Eru was good, all knowing, and all powerful how/why did he blah blah blah...

I'm tired of that battle. I need reprieve from it.

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I majored in "leading fools astray" 101.

Yes master. We are the sheep of the Beard.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-03-2002, 01:45 AM

Maybe Eru knew what was going to happen all along and didn't stop it because that is just what is supposed to happen. Depressing thought, eh?

BeardofPants · 06-03-2002, 01:50 AM

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Maybe Eru knew what was going to happen all along and didn't stop it because that is just what is supposed to happen. Depressing thought, eh?

Well, when you create free will, you create all sorts of arena amusements...

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Could that have been held under the power of his voice? Ala Saruman?

I don't think so...
He was charasmatic, but that's about as far as I'd swing it.

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Its the if Eru was good, all knowing, and all powerful how/why did he blah blah blah...

I'm tired of that battle. I need reprieve from it.

When in Rome...
Your black and white argument isn't working much either. So, according to you Feanor is an unredeamable @$$#$$?

afro-elf · 06-03-2002, 01:50 AM

What is it with them dying in vain.

If someone is murdered and you repent what does that have to do with someone dying in vain.

I don't follow the logic here. If you did a bad deed how is continuing along that path justifying anything.

So if Anakin repented his slaying of the sand people how does that make the death in vain? Its better for him to continue down the path to the dark side?

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He swore an oath. Morgoth had the Silmarils. 'Nuff said. You want that they should have left the Silmarils in HIS keeping?!

The Valar thought otherswise

BeardofPants · 06-03-2002, 01:53 AM

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Originally posted by afro-elf
What is it with them dying in vain.

If someone is murdered and you repent what does that have to do with someone dying in vain.

I just threw that in for fun.
The point is that regardless of whether he repented the oath or not, the damage was done, and the "seeds of mistrust sown."

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The Valar thought otherswise

The Valar were BLIND as well. There is much that they didn't see or understand.

06-03-2002, 12:57 AM	#61
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Bop thanks for the challenge I haven't had this much fun since the anti-theist thread. You Jar Jar lovin, Christian, goddess of sheep of third rate wool __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

06-03-2002, 12:57 AM	#62
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	But they chose to go with him and forsake Aman. I would also agree that he was tainted, but I agree with BoP. He was too driven by his pride and his emotions, but he was not inherently evil. He held his sons to an oath they swore in front of the Valar. And what would have happened if he had released them from their oath? __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

06-03-2002, 01:39 AM	#74
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	Feanor was not evil, he just had his faults, same as everyone else. He just let his faults cause a LOT of trouble. He's still not a 'villain.' Again, what precisely would have happened if they had repented? First, both the Teleri and the Noldor would have died in vain. . . __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

06-03-2002, 01:45 AM	#77
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	Maybe Eru knew what was going to happen all along and didn't stop it because that is just what is supposed to happen. Depressing thought, eh? __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

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