feanor a villian - Page 3

Tar-Elendil · 06-02-2002, 08:03 PM

saying feanor would have still been a "villain" even if morgoth's lies had not spread through the noldor is like saying turin would have still done the wrongs that he did without the curse of morgoth or dragon.

Ñólendil · 06-02-2002, 09:44 PM

Túrin was by nature a goodly person (though carried away by emotion at times, "especially wrath"). Feanáro was not. Well, I suppose everyone's inner nature was good, or I believe so. Feanáro was however corrupt. Túrin was cursed, there is a huge difference.

Tar-Elendil · 06-02-2002, 09:50 PM

i was merely using that as an example and yea there are drastic differences from feanor and turin.
i was just stating that saying feanor would still have been a 'villain" and done the the things he had if the lies of morgoth hadnt occured would be like saying turin wouldve still done all the bad things he did if he wasnt cursed. In other words. It wouldnt have happened.

Ñólendil · 06-02-2002, 10:01 PM

Right. I'm attacking your example, to put it bluntly. I'm with them. Without Melkor, there obviously wouldn't be evil, but Curufinwe was not led astray by his lies alone. Whether Melkor was held captive in Aman or not, or whether he was freed, as long as he had ever existed and sown the seeds of evil, Feanáro would have been corrupt. I'm not saying his fall was a foregone conclusion in the beginning of the Music, I'm just trying to say he wasn't some poor nice guy that was victimized by Melkor's lies. He himself was at fault in a way that guys like Túrin and other good people were not.

Khadrane · 06-02-2002, 10:15 PM

Feanor is demonic. (Not literally. That's just been my "word" for the last week or so.)

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-02-2002, 11:14 PM

Feanor is not 'demonic.'

Without Melkor he may have been very arrogant and prideful, but he would not have been a 'villain.' He may not have had a lot of friends, but he would not have, for example, pulled a sword on his brother. I believe, anyway. He would not have had a reason to, and he would not have been so angry and paranoid.

afro-elf · 06-02-2002, 11:48 PM

Quote:

But he died a hero...

How do you reckon this? Because he died fighting Balrogs?

With his last breathe he cursed his sons ( read that properly) to follow a doom that is unforgivable for a father.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-02-2002, 11:57 PM

He held them to their oath, which he could not have freed them from. And he died fighting balrogs, following his oath. I'm not saying he was perfect, or heroic, I just think you're being too harsh in judging him.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 06-03-2002, 12:02 AM

Well, Feanor was no hero, but I agree that he held his sons to their oath because he did not have the power to release them from it, an oath that never should have been sworn in the first place. It does seem that the people of the First age were big on swearing oaths though.

BeardofPants · 06-03-2002, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf

And he would not have had a reason to go to Middle Earth if it hadn't been for Melkor.

To re-iterate an earlier point, I think he would have find another reason to go to Middle Earth, anyway. It wasn't just for the Silmarils that he went to ME afterall.

Quote:

With his last breathe he cursed his sons ( read that properly) to follow a doom that is unforgivable for a father.

And I have to agree with EG here; I think you're being overly harsh upon Feanor. He was prideful, but he wasn't overtly evil.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-03-2002, 12:11 AM

He went to ME because of the Silmarils, and because he was angry with the Valar. His rebellion against the Valar was caused mostly by his rage at Melkor, and that Melkor was once a Valar. So why would have gone to ME otherwise?

He was not evil, far from it, I think. He just let his pride and emotions guide him when he should not have.

afro-elf · 06-03-2002, 12:21 AM

Quote:

I agree that he held his sons to their oath because he did not have the power to release them from it

I am curious about that. If he had said that ,seeing all was doomed to fail, "I bid thee not to continue this mad quest. I was wrong. My sons do not pursue the jewels any further. My love for you is greater than that of venegence or pride. though we have forsaken Valinor. We can a least return to the light as best we can. Pursue not Morgoth from this day forth. Resist is lies and power and perhaps you and our people will be spared from the folly I woud doom them to. I ask thee what is the greater sin, to follow a path that you know is wrong because you spoke with a wrathful tongue or turn from a path in humility for you erred. Forgive me my sons and by what ever power I have I set you free and take your sins and that of my followers unto me"

This may have been better than even Earendil for Feanor the was the mover and shaker. Not to say that there would not have been war with Morgoth but it would have been of a different nature instead of be driven by venegnece it would be driven by the need for redeemption.

afro-elf · 06-03-2002, 12:33 AM

Quote:

And I have to agree with EG here; I think you're being overly harsh upon Feanor. He was prideful, but he wasn't overtly evil.

To me, it is like a palestinian father on his dying bed telling his sons at whatever the cost attack israel to the very end, full well knowing that they can not ever hope to succeed.

Fathers creating suicide/homocide bombers of their childern to me is unforgivable.

The kinslaying and the burning of the ships are not acts I would call good. I think Feanor was tainted. Just like Anakin.

BeardofPants · 06-03-2002, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf

To me, it is like a palestinian father on his dying bed telling his sons at whatever the cost attack israel to the very end, full well knowing that they can not ever hope to succeed.

No. Not the same at all. They had already sworn the damned oath, in front of the Valar no less. To abscond from it after his death at the hands of the Balrog would have just brought about more evil.

Quote:

The kinslaying and the burning of the ships are not acts I would call good. I think Feanor was tainted. Just like Anakin.

Yes. In this I would agree. BUT, tainted due to his over-emotional, prideful ways, NOT because of some inherent evil within him.

afro-elf · 06-03-2002, 12:37 AM

Also I would say that his self centeredness was unparalelled say Morgoth.

He drove an entire nation and his children to doom for is own reasons. I would not call that good.

BeardofPants · 06-03-2002, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
Also I would say that his self centeredness was unparalelled say Morgoth.

He drove an entire nation and his children to doom for is own reasons. I would not call that good.

Tsk. He was not the only factor.

afro-elf · 06-03-2002, 12:43 AM

Quote:

No. Not the same at all. They had already sworn the damned oath, in front of the Valar no less. To abscond from it after his death at the hands of the Balrog would have just brought about more evil.

How would it bring more evil? To use a christian/moslem example. If I swear an oath before God in to pursue some mad quest that will doom a nation and then I repent. How does that bring about more evil?

afro-elf · 06-03-2002, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Tsk. He was not the only factor.

If it were not for him they would not have forsaken Aman

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 06-03-2002, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf

If it were not for him they would not have forsaken Aman

But then we could say that if it were not for Morgoth bringing lies between the Noldor and poisoning their minds against the Valar, none of this would have happened.

BeardofPants · 06-03-2002, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf
He went to ME because of the Silmarils, and because he was angry with the Valar. His rebellion against the Valar was caused mostly by his rage at Melkor, and that Melkor was once a Valar. So why would have gone to ME otherwise?

YES, but who made the Silmarils? If he hadn't made them, his so-called "taint" would have manifested in other ways. Perhaps unveiling a resentment towards the Valar in Valinor... this could have caused Feanor to stage a rebellion of sorts.

Quote:

If it were not for him they would not have forsaken Aman

And if it weren't for Melkor...

And if it weren't for Eru...

Cyclic reasoning at best.

06-02-2002, 08:03 PM	#41
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	saying feanor would have still been a "villain" even if morgoth's lies had not spread through the noldor is like saying turin would have still done the wrongs that he did without the curse of morgoth or dragon. __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-02-2002, 09:44 PM	#42
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Túrin was by nature a goodly person (though carried away by emotion at times, "especially wrath"). Feanáro was not. Well, I suppose everyone's inner nature was good, or I believe so. Feanáro was however corrupt. Túrin was cursed, there is a huge difference. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 06-02-2002 at 09:46 PM.

06-02-2002, 09:50 PM	#43
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	i was merely using that as an example and yea there are drastic differences from feanor and turin. i was just stating that saying feanor would still have been a 'villain" and done the the things he had if the lies of morgoth hadnt occured would be like saying turin wouldve still done all the bad things he did if he wasnt cursed. In other words. It wouldnt have happened. __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-02-2002, 10:01 PM	#44
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Right. I'm attacking your example, to put it bluntly. I'm with them. Without Melkor, there obviously wouldn't be evil, but Curufinwe was not led astray by his lies alone. Whether Melkor was held captive in Aman or not, or whether he was freed, as long as he had ever existed and sown the seeds of evil, Feanáro would have been corrupt. I'm not saying his fall was a foregone conclusion in the beginning of the Music, I'm just trying to say he wasn't some poor nice guy that was victimized by Melkor's lies. He himself was at fault in a way that guys like Túrin and other good people were not. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

06-02-2002, 10:15 PM	#45
Khadrane Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Middle Earth (I wish) Posts: 670	Feanor is demonic. (Not literally. That's just been my "word" for the last week or so.) __________________ Few know whither their road will take them till they come to its end. -Legolas FRODO LIVES! ABORTION IS HOMICIDE

06-02-2002, 11:14 PM	#46
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	Feanor is not 'demonic.' Without Melkor he may have been very arrogant and prideful, but he would not have been a 'villain.' He may not have had a lot of friends, but he would not have, for example, pulled a sword on his brother. I believe, anyway. He would not have had a reason to, and he would not have been so angry and paranoid. __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

06-02-2002, 11:57 PM	#48
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	He held them to their oath, which he could not have freed them from. And he died fighting balrogs, following his oath. I'm not saying he was perfect, or heroic, I just think you're being too harsh in judging him. __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

06-03-2002, 12:02 AM	#49
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Well, Feanor was no hero, but I agree that he held his sons to their oath because he did not have the power to release them from it, an oath that never should have been sworn in the first place. It does seem that the people of the First age were big on swearing oaths though.

06-03-2002, 12:11 AM	#51
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	He went to ME because of the Silmarils, and because he was angry with the Valar. His rebellion against the Valar was caused mostly by his rage at Melkor, and that Melkor was once a Valar. So why would have gone to ME otherwise? He was not evil, far from it, I think. He just let his pride and emotions guide him when he should not have. __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

06-03-2002, 12:37 AM	#55
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Also I would say that his self centeredness was unparalelled say Morgoth. He drove an entire nation and his children to doom for is own reasons. I would not call that good. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

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