weapons in aman

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Bacchus


Hello, SGH, good to see you.

I do believe that you are correct regarding the stockpiling of weapons in Formenos. As I recall, Feanor was there for 12 years of the Trees--not an insignificant length of time.

I was wondering what the purpose was? Did he plan on a war with his own people in Aman? Or was it in anticipation of something else. Elves were very forsighted. It never states that Feanor had forsight of the Exile or the battle at Alqualonde?

[Bacchus]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I was wondering what the purpose was? Did he plan on a war with his own people in Aman? Or was it in anticipation of something else. Elves were very forsighted. It never states that Feanor had forsight of the Exile or the battle at Alqualonde?

Interesting...

Let's think about this...

We know that Melkor planted the thought that Fingolfin intended to usurp his position. We also know that during the exile at Formenos, Fingolfin governed at Tirion, thus making Melkor's lies seem true. I do not, however think that at this time Feanor forsaw the Kinslaying or the Exile, nor do I think that he truly intended to use the weapons beyond possibly as a means of intimidation.

The loss of the Silmarils and his father, in my opinion, was totally unforseen by Feanor, and was the final deciding factor in Feanor's crossing the line between threatening violence and actually delivering it.

[Ñólendil]

Mahtan is the name you were looking for Bacchus, you were off by one letter. Late in his life Tolkien either forgot about 'Mahtan' or was unhappy with it, as he wondered whether the character's name was Sarmo.

[Bacchus]

Thank you, sir. I couldn't decide between the two, and didn't have the book handy.

[rashbold]

No, Fëanor was not the first to forge weapons, and I believe that applied to swords as well. We have to remember that even even during the Great March from Cuiviénen the servants of Melkor-Morgoth had harried them on the way, and it was Oromë who instructed them with their making and their use. That is why the Eldar had words for certain metals they have had use for, seen in the Common Eldarin roots ANGA "iron", URUN "copper", MALAT "gold" and KJELEP "silver". (Peoples of Middle-earth, p. 366).

[Elvellon]

I may be wrong but wasn’t Feanor the first to create swords? (and not weapons in general).

[Bacchus]

My assertion was that Feanor was the first to forge swords. I also pointed out that I was working from memory. I do not have the books handy at the moment to check this, however.

[Elvellon]

Oh, I misunderstood that, sorry.

[Eru]

I am going to apologize in advance for this lengthy post, but this thread has intrigued me. It is full of so many different facets of a very small part of this history.

The Silmarillion, Of The Silmarils, Page 69:

"And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears. Shields also they made displaying the tokens of many houses and kindreds that vied one with another; and these only they wore abroad, and of other weapons they did not speak for each believed that he alone had received the warning. And Feanor made a secret forge, of which not even Melkor was aware; and there he tempered fell swords for himself and for his sons, and made tall helms with plumes of red. Bitterly did Mahtan rue the day when he taught to the husband of Nerdanel all the lore of metalwork that he had learned of Aule."

It is certain from this that the concept of weapons of war and of destruction were learnt from Melkor. The lore of metalwork abetted this knowledge but was not responsible for it. And while it seems obvious that Orome would have taught the Eldar how to defend themselves before or during the march to the West, there is no mention of it in the Silmarillion.

With regard to why the Noldor thought they needed weapons, Inoldonil was right. Melkor played upon the jealousies between Feanor and Fingolfin: "and whispers came to Feanor that Fingolfin and his sons were plotting to usurp the leadership of Finwe and of the elder line of Feanor, and to supplant them by the leave of the Valar; for the Valar were ill-pleased that the Silmarils lay in Tirion and were not committed to their keeping. But to Fingolfin and Finarfin it was said: Beware! Small love has the proud son of Miriel ever had for the children of Indis ... It will not be long before he drives you forth .."

There was no foresight of the theft of the Silmarils involved. Nor was it ever said that the intent of Feanor/Fingolfin and Co's. were evil and they desired to wage war upon one another. I think it was merely good old fashioned rivalry, warped out of all proportion.

Afro-elf, to help with a couple of your questions:

"Were the Valar blind to Melor's meddlings?" The answer, I believe, lies in the description of Orome's wonder when first he sights the Firstborn: "And Orome looking upon the Elves was filled with wonder, as though they were beings sudden and marvellous and unforeseen; for so it shall ever be with the Valar. From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown invision from afar, to those who enter verily into Ea each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold." In other words, the Valar had no precognition that Melkor would be so deceitful, and as beings of utter goodness, they had no concept of evil and therefore could not begin to guess what Melkor might do.

"So even though all elves did not go on the great journey the valar kicked some bad guy butt to make ME a litte safer for them?"

Not necessarily. Initially the Valar waged war upon the fortresses of Melkor because "Manwe said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Iluvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadow of Melkor.'" After they won, they held another council, to decide the fate of the Quendi , during which some "thought the Quendi should be free to walk Middle-earth, and with their gifts of skill to order all the lands and heal their hurts. But the most part feared for the Quendi in the dangerous world amid the deceits of the starlit dusk .." So, the 'kicking of some bad guy butt' was done for the sake of all the Quendi, and not just for those who decided not to take up the march into the West. There is no doubt however, that those left behind still had to deal with many dangers left over from Melkor's reign.

Hope these quotes help in some way.

**PS - can someone with greater computer knowledge than I please tell me how to switch into the second keyboard so I can do all the umlauts and graves and acutes and every other squiggly thing so necessary when writing about Middle-earth? Please?

[afro-elf]

i just read in the SIL that thingol got weapons from the dwarves because they did not need them before the return of melkor


and that the green elves had no "STEEL" being a wood land folk

and that when feanor assaulted the havens that the teleri had mostly bows

it seems that since tolkien's elves were hunters they had hunting weapons spear and bow


it seems that they did not have steel but that still leaves bronze and iron weapons

but i think the noldor and dwarves where the first weapons of war forgers

[Ñólendil]

Welcome Eru! Bold name choice. You can use diacritics by pushing numlock, holding down alt and pressing numbers on the numeric pad on the right of your key-board. Thus, with numlock on, holding down ALT and pressing 132 will get you: ä. Here's a list:

á Alt+160
Ã* Alt+161
ó Alt+162
ú Alt+163
é Alt+130
ä Alt+132
ë Alt+137
ï Alt+139
Ä Alt+142
ö Alt+148
Ö Alt+153
¿ Alt+168
Þ Alt+0222
þ Alt+0254
æ ALT + 145
Æ Alt + 146
É Alt + 144
ê Alt + 136
î Alt + 140
ô Alt + 147
û Alt + 150
ñ Alt + 164
Ñ Alt + 165

[rashbold]

Unfortunately, much of the published Silmarillion is but one of many versions Tolkien wrote over the years. As for weapons, take note of this note in The Peoples of Middle-earth p. 366:

The Eldar had words for some metals, because under Oromë's instruction they had devised weapons against Morgoth's servants especially on the March, but the only ones that appear in all Eldarin languages were iron, copper, gold and silver (ANGA, URUN, MALAT, KJELEP).

(Italics mine).

This pretty much makes it explicit in my opinion.

[afro-elf]

thanks that says it all

[Eru]

Originally posted by rashbold
[B]Unfortunately, much of the published Silmarillion is but one of many versions Tolkien wrote over the years.

Thanks for pointing that out, Rashbold. Trouble is, I first read the LoTR and TS when a child and looooooong before any of the HoME series were published (no snide remarks about age, please). And before the Books of Lost Tales were released too. So in my mind, The Silmarillion was the definitive Tolkien life work (albeit posthumously edited and published by CT), and many of the books published since, by CT et al, (excepting the Lost Tales I and II) were simply complilations of notes and essays he wrote whilst struggling to complete The Silmarillion, despite CT himself saying otherwise.

I guess the point is there are so many conflictions between all the books, and Tolkien himself confessed to changing his mind many times about so many aspects of Middle-earth, that it would be hard to say which publication could be entirely relied upon.

And many thanks, Inoldonil, for the tip and the welcome. The name choice stemmed from expediency and a need for something easy to remember. I was surprised to find it had not been taken!

**Edited to add:**

If the name offends, I would be happy to change it.

[Ñólendil]

It certainly doesn't offend me. Naming oneself 'the One' is simply a bit comical, you must admit! Especially since you only wanted a name you could remember. There's another poster on Entmoot named The Dagda, and that's not much different.

[anuvial]

all all

Hello all,
i go by the name of tarumbar,and i was wondering what was the greatest sword ever forged and by whom,where and why is it the greatest?.I am new here so i don't know any one so please reply.
yours curiously,
tarumbar(anuvial).